How come no (p)105d yet?

[Zooomer]

Must said battery density increases each year. I think he referenced 4%??
the 100KW vehicles have been out for 2 years but they weren't based on better density, only more cells. Same cells as the 90 which came out over 3 years ago. Even with an improvement of 1% per year they could feasibly do a 105.

I think it would spur sales a bit, take the car to a milestone 350 miles/charge and show dominance in a field where Porsche, Audi, Rivian, Jaguar are coming in.

I know they used some of the advancement ability and shifted to less Cobalt but they compromised charge speed & density for cost. In a high end version of the car there is margin to increase cost a bit.

 

[DocZ]

I agree. Really disappointing to watch Tesla sit on the S battery upgrade for 2 years like that. Need at least a 110 pack, especially now that the 3 production issues are largely solved.

 

[zanary]

I don't think we'll see a Model S 105D based on the current battery architecture. It might migrate to the 2170 in the refresh in the coming years... The 100 pack is still pretty solid, with just two revisions since it was introduced (I believe).

I think when the 100D pack arrived, it was P/N 1086755-00-C, and in the past 11 months, it went to a revision D (1086755-00-D). Now on the other hand, the 90D battery went through many part numbers and revisions as did that 85 and 75 packs.

Even the latest parts catalog, shows the revision D as the most recent 100D pack.

 

[Zooomer]

Zanary, the 75 and 90 were cell changes. Same # of cells. it makes sense they went through a lot of revisions. They were pushing limits. The 85 tear down revealed it was actually only 81. I think the 90 is a bit short too but still, that was a decent leap.

The 100 is actually 102 so by the way Tesla rates they could have a very small improvement, say 3% and still call it a 105. The only reason I could see not to would be problems with having different products, slows down overall production to use one version of cell in one car and another in everything else.

Another idea would be to add a super capacitor to enable high total charge and faster charge time. It would enable you to charge at high rate for longer. Problem then lies in power density and cost I suppose. Def something that will never happen.

 

[zanary]

Zanary, the 75 and 90 were cell changes. Same # of cells. it makes sense they went through a lot of revisions. They were pushing limits. The 85 tear down revealed it was actually only 81. I think the 90 is a bit short too but still, that was a decent leap.

Have you see the number of 90 pack part numbers and revisions there are? Can you be more specific as to these "cell changes" for each of the part numbers and revisions?

Note: The left size are for the Model S, and the right side are for the Model X.

 

[jonm93]

I would argue its a cost and capital allocation issue. They were spending piles of money on the Model 3 ramp and since the Model S has been selling consistently there wasn't a reason to disrupt the manufacturing process and spend the money on a new pack for the MS. Once the Model 3 is firmly established and Model Y and Semi are showing good progress we will likely get some sort of MS/MX refresh but it remains to be seen how deep that will be. It might just be a styling change.

 

[JohnnyG]

View attachment 359659

Have you see the number of 90 pack part numbers and revisions there are? Can you be more specific as to these "cell changes" for each of the part numbers and revisions?

Note: The left size are for the Model S, and the right side are for the Model X.

The 90 battery was (and for early adopters, still is) a train wreck. There was a design change (definitely anode, likely also chemistry) from the 85 to the 90; hence both being the same number of cells. Unfortunately the 90 had gobs of problems. They finally worked them out in the end, which lead us to the amazing 100 pack. Unfortunately, the early 90 owners are stuck with subpar batteries.

 

[ucmndd]

Model S needs a lot of updates at this point, but I don’t think a bigger battery even cracks the top 20.

EV owners need to get over this idea that a newer “better” car = more range. We’re there. The future is now. More battery? Sure, eventual incremental improvements - but better charging speed and infrastructure would be infinitely more useful to 99% of owners.

 

[gilscales]

I'm guessing a redesign of the S and X will come with the new 2170 cells if they manage to increase production enough to handle that, maybe we could see a P120D by then?
rumors are that an interior refresh is due next year followed by a complete redesign in 2021
https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/tesla-model-s-x-interior-refresh-q3-2019/

 

[David99]

5% improvement each year since the Model S came out would be a 120 kWh battery in 2019. Actually the 100 battery is not better, they just were able to cram 16% more batteries into the same space. So 120 * 1.16 = 138 kWh. We are far from improving 5% a year as predicted.

 

[Shock-On-T]

I feel like 100kWh is already gigantic. It's 7 powerwalls!

I'd rather see faster charging. This would greatly reduce crowding at superchargers, and make it less important to have a massive battery if you could just top up in a few minutes.

 

[emmz0r]

I feel like 100kWh is already gigantic. It's 7 powerwalls!

I'd rather see faster charging. This would greatly reduce crowding at superchargers, and make it less important to have a massive battery if you could just top up in a few minutes.

They are coming with faster superchargers now. Will they allow the existing battery packs to accept more current?

 

[zanary]

The 90 battery was (and for early adopters, still is) a train wreck. There was a design change (definitely anode, likely also chemistry) from the 85 to the 90; hence both being the same number of cells. Unfortunately the 90 had gobs of problems. They finally worked them out in the end, which lead us to the amazing 100 pack. Unfortunately, the early 90 owners are stuck with subpar batteries.

By the same definition, the all batteries except for the 100 was for early adopters because there are dozens of part numbers and revisions... Interesting.

 

[David99]

I feel like 100kWh is already gigantic. It's 7 powerwalls!

I'd rather see faster charging. This would greatly reduce crowding at superchargers, and make it less important to have a massive battery if you could just top up in a few minutes.

Elon himself said a larger battery is more useful and what people would prefer than a faster charging one. As an example he mentioned the cell phone. People want cell phone batteries to last longer, not to charge faster. I think he is right. I and my family would much rather driver longer legs and then take a longer break. Honestly a 20-30 min break is kind of an odd time. It's too long to wait, it's too short to do something. Sure you can waste time and charge to 100% but you are hardly getting more miles into the battery doing so.

With a large battery you could drive 300 miles, take a 1 hour break, then drive another 300 miles. That's about as much as you would do in a day. We would be at the same level as any ICE car. With current batteries you can drive maybe 200 miles on the first leg, then 150 on the second, then another 150 on the third, and then you charge for the third time to be able to drive the same distance. I have driven aprox 120k miles on road trips. My family is annoyed having to stop over and over.

 

[David99]

They are coming with faster superchargers now. Will they allow the existing battery packs to accept more current?

There is rumors the Model 3 can charge at a higher rate. All other cars before probably not.

 

[DocZ]

Elon himself said a larger battery is more useful and what people would prefer than a faster charging one. As an example he mentioned the cell phone. People want cell phone batteries to last longer, not to charge faster. I think he is right. I and my family would much rather driver longer legs and then take a longer break. Honestly a 20-30 min break is kind of an odd time. It's too long to wait, it's too short to do something. Sure you can waste time and charge to 100% but you are hardly getting more miles into the battery doing so.

With a large battery you could drive 300 miles, take a 1 hour break, then drive another 300 miles. That's about as much as you would do in a day. We would be at the same level as any ICE car. With current batteries you can drive maybe 200 miles on the first leg, then 150 on the second, then another 150 on the third, and then you charge for the third time to be able to drive the same distance. I have driven aprox 120k miles on road trips. My family is annoyed having to stop over and over.

Agree 100%. Those of us who frequently drive long distances see how annoying electric cars still are. Anyone who is saying 300 mile range is enough is just straight up wrong. It’s enough for day to day short distance driving. Electric cars need to be viable for EVERYONE, including those who drive long distances.

The S needs to have a range of at least 375-400 miles, especially when the 3 has a range of 310.

 

[mb300sd]

I'd upgrade to a P120D but not a 105 unless performance was significantly improved. Come on Elon, it can be done!

As for the charging time, yeah. The Tesla doesn''t really fit my driving style for long trips. I like to do the whole trip pretty much non stop and take one of the ICE cars unless I know I'm going to want AP while I'm hungover. Gas, bathroom and grab snacks while it's filling, back on the road in 5-10 minutes.

 

[Shock-On-T]

I feel like 100kWh is already gigantic. It's 7 powerwalls!

I'd rather see faster charging. This would greatly reduce crowding at superchargers, and make it less important to have a massive battery if you could just top up in a few minutes.

They are coming with faster superchargers now. Will they allow the existing battery packs to accept more current?

I’m pretty sure the charge speed is battery-limited already. Eg. The 75 charges slower than the 100 pack etc etc.

 

[mongo]

Who is to say the packs are not getting more capacity, but hiding it in software to extend service life? Would need to do a tear down of a new pack to check cells capacities...

 

[roblab]

I'd rather see faster charging. This would greatly reduce crowding at superchargers, and make it less important to have a massive battery if you could just top up in a few minutes.

I'd rather see more people charging at home. No one is in that much of a hurry at 2AM. "This would greatly reduce crowding at superchargers" by locals. The new Model S has 335 miles of range. Where can you go?? Might make it all the way to Wagga Wagga. Four superchargers between Sydney and Melbourne. And it's way worse in California.