How does a certified electrician make this mistake?

[arnolddeleon]

It shouldn't be be hard for an electrician to fix. The only real question who is paying the electrician.

I don't have a copy of the NEC so I can't check to see if the 20A outlets are actually required. It seems pretty clear that 20A *circuits* are required in certain places (e.g. kitchen appliance circuits) but the outlet question seemed more ambiguous. TheSpruce.com article only talked about 20A circuits. I haven't ever encountered a consumer product like a toaster or microwave with 20A 120V plug (of course it doesn't mean they don't exist but I don't think they are common). I'm guessing the requirement for 20A GFCI is for the pass through requirement since it a 20A circuit and if you are using a single GFCI to actually protect the downstream circuits you would need the GFCI itself to be 20A rated. However, there is no downside in having 20A outlets on 20A circuits. If I understood correctly these are kitchen circuits so they must be 20A. At the end of the day, your electrician, Tesla in this case, owes you a fix.

 

[qdeathstar]

Kitchen Electrical Code For Outlets, Lighting, and Appliances

Kitchen outlet code is a part of electrical codes that also control lights and appliances. Learn about the codes for remodels and home improvement.

www.thespruce.com

15 Or 20 Amp Outlets? Everything You Need To Know - Kitchen Bed & Bath

Kitchen outlets are often wired to provide 20 amp, 120-volt circuits to GFCI outlets, especially for countertop areas. Must kitchen outlets be 20 amp?

kitchenbedandbath.com

And a hundred other sources so I'm sure it's there in the NEC requirements as well.

kitchen outlets and bathroom outlets have to be on a 20 amp circuit in new construction. However, gfcis don’t have to be installed on a 20 amp circuit.

In the 1980s and 1990s is was very typical to install the garage, bathrooms, and outside receptacles on a single 15 amp gfci circuit. In that case there is no requirement for an electrician to replace the wiring though out your house when you upgrade the panels.

Currently, outside receptacles have to be installed on a gfci protected circuit, but they don’t have to be on a 20 amp circuit.

If the electrician in question extended the wires, he should replace the extensions with the matching wire size, which you say is 12 awg in the junction box. And then what he has done is a code violations but I’m not surprised inspector didn’t see it...

If he didn’t extend the wire, (Eg the wires were 14 awg going into the old panel) then I think he probably should have told you something was wrong but isn’t really responsible for fixing it for free.
.

 

[rjpjnk]

They are required as I mentioned in the first post.

Yes, I recall reading that but thought maybe it was a type o. You said "did some reading and learned that GFIC outlets must be on a 20 amp breaker", but I assumed you must have been referring to 20 amp GFCI receptacles. Does your local code there require all GFCI receptacles to be on 20 amp circuits? Even 15 amp GFCI receptacles?

Here in NJ it is common to see GFCI outlets on both 20 and 15 amp circuits.

The NEC does require certain rooms (kitchens/baths) be serviced by 20 amp circuits though, and I thought perhaps that was what you might be referring to. Those circuits can have a mixture of 15 and 20 amp outlets. 15 is much more common here.

 

[wwhitney]

- Kitchen counter top circuits must be 20A circuits
- Receptacles for kitchen counter tops must be GFCI protected.
- A 15A circuit must use only 15A receptacles.
- A 20A circuit may use 15A or 20A receptacles.
- As equipment with NEMA 5-20 plugs is exceedingly rare, it makes sense to use only 15A receptacles. 20A receptacles have basically zero benefit over 15A receptacles.

Cheers, Wayne

PS The exception to the above: if a circuit has only a single receptacle (meaning not a duplex receptacle device), then the requirement is that the receptacle rating must match or exceed the circuit rating. So if you had a dedicated circuit for a cord and plug connected window A/C, for example, and you use a simplex receptacle, then if the circuit is 20A you must use a 20A simplex receptacle. If the window A/C has a NEMA 5-15 plug on it, you could instead use a duplex 15A receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[rjpjnk]

Yes, this is exactly my understanding as well.

 

[Ampster]

The part I am not clear about is whether Tesla extended the circuit with 14 AWG wire? If they did why did they do that?

 

[wwhitney]

The part I am not clear about is whether Tesla extended the circuit with 14 AWG wire? If they did why did they do that?

Per the OP's narrative, they did extend (2) 12 AWG / 20A circuits with 14 AWG and (appropriately) downsized the breakers to 15A. That was a poor choice. The only reason I can think of is they ran out of 12/2 NM and hoped that no one would notice. Or a somewhat more positive spin on it, it was the end of the day, that was the way to get the circuits energized again, and they intended to come back the next day to fix it, but failed to for some reason.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[h2ofun]

Per the OP's narrative, they did extend (2) 12 AWG / 20A circuits with 14 AWG and (appropriately) downsized the breakers to 15A. That was a poor choice. The only reason I can think of is they ran out of 12/2 NM and hoped that no one would notice. Or a somewhat more positive spin on it, it was the end of the day, that was the way to get the circuits energized again, and they intended to come back the next day to fix it, but failed to for some reason.

Cheers, Wayne

Yep, 99% of homeowners would never notice this type of stuff. I am the 1% which drives them nuts.

 

[wwhitney]

Well, in this case, they did notice, because the breaker started tripping, presumably because those kitchen counter top circuits actually are being heavily loaded, so 15A vs 20A makes a difference.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Ampster]

Extending a circuit is beyond the scope of an install unless it was to accomodate the relocation to a different panel. I would like to think it was an error of failure to return with correct wire. The important thing from safety standpoint was they downgraded the breaker.

 

[sorka]

Yes, I recall reading that but thought maybe it was a type o. You said "did some reading and learned that GFIC outlets must be on a 20 amp breaker", but I assumed you must have been referring to 20 amp GFCI receptacles. Does your local code there require all GFCI receptacles to be on 20 amp circuits? Even 15 amp GFCI receptacles?

Here in NJ it is common to see GFCI outlets on both 20 and 15 amp circuits.

The NEC does require certain rooms (kitchens/baths) be serviced by 20 amp circuits though, and I thought perhaps that was what you might be referring to. Those circuits can have a mixture of 15 and 20 amp outlets. 15 is much more common here.

Apparently my mistake was not mentioning it was the kitchen GFCI until a few posts later. The kitchen is absolutely required to be 20 amp. Local code may require additional GFCI also be 20 amp but I'm not familiar enough with local code to know.

I'd just fix it myself but the wire's coming into the back of the distribution panel from the attic are VERY tight and I'm skeptical that I could fit the larger conductor through it. Plus when he was installing it, the entire panel was out and he it it over the bundle of conductors that was already pulled. I suspect it's a lot harder with the panel not being partially removed. Additionally, the attic access is very difficult. For the install, I cut an opening in the ceiling so they could get easier access. The thing that sucks is I only just patched the hole last month with drywall, tape, mud, texture, and finally matched paint so you can't even tell there was a big gaping rectangular hole. I can get up there but it's a lot of crawling flat over blown insulation to get to that location which has about 16 inches of clearance to the rafters above.

 

[sorka]

The part I am not clear about is whether Tesla extended the circuit with 14 AWG wire? If they did why did they do that?

They did and besides the obvious answer is that it was just a mistake, I can't speculate on any other reasons.

 

[sorka]

Yep, 99% of homeowners would never notice this type of stuff. I am the 1% which drives them nuts.

I'm NORMALLY that guy too but for some reason I missed it. I even had a check list to compare all breaker amperages before and after but there was a huge amount going on that day and I missed it and then missed it again because I was focused on the one circuit that wasn't working at all.

 

[h2ofun]

I'm NORMALLY that guy too but for some reason I missed it. I even had a check list to compare all breaker amperages before and after but there was a huge amount going on that day and I missed it and then missed it again because I was focused on the one circuit that wasn't working at all.

Yep, if I had not missed my battery opportunity, I would have had 7.

 

[qdeathstar]

They did and besides the obvious answer is that it was just a mistake, I can't speculate on any other reasons.

well then, this is a safety issue and they are responsible. I would demand them fix it.

 

[holeydonut]

Yep, if I had not missed my battery opportunity, I would have had 7.

SGIP will fund up to 7?!

 

[sorka]

Yep, if I had not missed my battery opportunity, I would have had 7.

What's this missed opportunity?

 

[h2ofun]

SGIP will fund up to 7?!

I was going to buy 2. But technically, they would have funded whatever the green button data supported. So yep, if I had put in for 7, I may have been approved. But with the 5 I have, technically, there is NO reason to need anymore. So I am going to take that money and try to put a whole bunch more solar on the roof, even though a lot would be north facing.

 

[holeydonut]

I was going to buy 2. But technically, they would have funded whatever the green button data supported. So yep, if I had put in for 7, I may have been approved. But with the 5 I have, technically, there is NO reason to need anymore. So I am going to take that money and try to put a whole bunch more solar on the roof, even though a lot would be north facing.

Oh gotcha, so you got 5 through SGIP and then you were going to out of pocket add two.

 

[h2ofun]

Oh gotcha, so you got 5 through SGIP and then you were going to out of pocket add two.

Yep. And I could have at one time, but I chocked at want to spent the 20K out of pocket. Oh well, I blew it. One cannot have SGIP and non SGIP batteries on same gateways. Long story, could have made work, but freaked out. I feel blessed I have the ones I have.