How fast should people drive in the carpool lane?

[Brando]

Also, the carpool lane isn’t designed to be the lane to speed in. It’s designed to be used by higher occupancy vehicles. Going above the speed limit by 5mph should be plenty.

Especially considering that higher occupancy vehicles weigh more and therefore they must stop in shorter distances with excess weight on the tire patch which might be slightly larger as well from the extra loading. And think how many more lives you can save in just one event.
</sarcasm> alert

 

[Brando]

drive as fast as the car in front of you, but no faster

you don't need to "out run the cops" just the car behind you
</that's a joke, son> get it?

 

[oktane]

I am giving you a big DISAGREE on this one. I too am an Orange/Riverside County driver and occasionally I use the carpool lane when traffic is jammed in the regular lanes. I drive the posted speed limit in the carpool lane which is usually 65 mph. As soon as traffic clears in the regular lanes, I move over, when it is safe to do so at a designated location. You can flip me off as much as you want, I don't pay attention anymore. I don't take kindly to your attempt to intimidate and bully me while you are driving a lethal weapon. Driving faster than the posted speed limit in the carpool lane is illegal, unsafe, and arrogant and not a good practice. I don't care what the flow of traffic is, if it is faster than the speed limit, it is illegal and potentially unsafe. If I were to drive at 75 mph in the carpool lane, there will be someone behind me who will flip me off because they want to go 85. It is a no win situation for me.

If you don't like the posted speed limit, change it through the legal process called an Initiative. In the meantime, I will continue to drive occasionally in the carpool lane at the posted speed limit. I'm the one in the Pearl White model 3. You can always right down my license plate and file a complaint with the CHP that I was driving the speed limit in the carpool lane. See how far that goes!

Slow traffic (you) should keep right whenever possible, or at least move over like you mentioned when someone comes up behind you at a high-rate of speed.

If you're a SoCal driver, you know there are *literally* a million OTHER lanes you can drive slowly in. You should avoid being vindictive and "enforcing" your slow speed on the other drivers. You may think you're saintly because you follow the speed limit but I'm sure if you were honest with yourself you are breaking some other laws, intentionally or not.

In case you can't tell I'm mostly joking with you and understand your position, although I disagree with it. Stay safe out there!

 

[bhzmark]

Also, the carpool lane isn’t designed to be the lane to speed in. It’s designed to be used by higher occupancy vehicles. Going above the speed limit by 5mph should be plenty.

The HOV Lane should be treated as a passing lane only for qualifying vehicles. When traffic is heavy in the regular lanes you can stay there, but be behind the car in front of you, otherwise you are just creating more unsafe congestion.

. I drive the posted speed limit in the carpool lane which is usually 65 mph.

While you may take comfort in your myopic Mr. Magoo self-righteousness, you are creating unsafe traffic congestion around you. Why do so many old people get that myopic self-righteousness? It’s like they reach a point where they stop learning and just insist that they are right about everything and have nothing to learn and can’t ever find a reason to change their mind. Weird.

If someone is behind you, you pull over and let them pass.

OR I would add, speed up to a safe distance behind the car in front of you if the lanes to the right are significantly slower. This is a simple rule that creates a safer traffic flow.

 

[T34ME]

While you may take comfort in your myopic Mr. Magoo self-righteousness, you are creating unsafe traffic congestion around you. Why do so many old people get that myopic self-righteousness? It’s like they reach a point where they stop learning and just insist that they are right about everything and have nothing to learn and can’t ever find a reason to change their mind. Weird..

I guess we get our myopic self-righteousness from the same place you do. Unfortunately, tolerance and understanding appear to be dead in America today. Weird is as weird does.

I drove 250 miles on the freeways of Orange/Riverside County yesterday, frequently using the carpool lane where available and when appropriate and driving the posted speed limit while in them and also in the regular lanes. I kept in mind the various viewpoints listed in this thread. I kept a watchful eye on the cars and traffic around me as a result of those viewpoints. Most of the time I was traveling faster (at the posted speed limit) than cars on my right and moved to the right (the FAR right lane when safe and appropriate) when I wasn't. I try to be a polite and attentive driver even when I don't agree with the manners and intolerance and impatience of those driving around me. Fortunately, about 80% of the drivers on California freeways are great. The other 20% seem to act self-entitled - like the guy in the red 350Z that was weaving in and out of traffic going about 85/90. As a consequence, while on my drive yesterday, not once did I contribute to the "creation of unsafe congestion around me" or did I create any rolling blocks or did I feel self-righteous in any way with Slacker "Chill" on the sound system. And I got home relaxed and salvo y sano (safe and sound) to boot.

 

[bhzmark]

Frustrated Drivers Want Cops To Crackdown On Left Lane Slowpokes

"Transportation experts said roads are engineered for slower drivers on the right and passing on the left. "Therefore the volume increases when the capacity is being reduced, and you have problems of delays and congestion and road rage,” Dr. John Falcocchio, Professor of Transportation Engineering, NYU, said.

“You get these vigilantes who say, ‘I am staying in the left hand lane, I am going to do the speed limit, and too bad for everybody else,” one driver said." [you were quoted!]

Driving Slow in the Left Lane is Dumb and Illegal

Maryland considers cracking down on drivers who linger in the left lane

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...king-down-on-drivers-holding-up-the-left-lane

Should You Only Use The Left Lane To Pass?

Growing number of states fine slowpoke drivers in highway fast lanes

Forbes Welcome

The left lane is for passing, not for cruising

MN bill seeks to push drivers out of the way of speeders

frequently using the carpool lane where available and when appropriate and driving the posted speed limit while in them

not once did I contribute to the "creation of unsafe congestion around me" or did I create any rolling blocks

You probably did. But your righteousness blinded you to it.

 

[T34ME]

You probably did. But your righteousness blinded you to it.

You are probably wrong but your self-entitlement blinded you to it.

 

[Brando]

I think this thread helps explain why there is such a difference in road kill US vs UK, France, Germany

about UK 2,000; France 3,300; Germany 3,500 vs US 30,000 [Brando's approximations only]

population UK 65 million; France 67 million; Germany 83 million; US 325 million

Why US roads are more dangerous than European ones
List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia

 

[bhzmark]

You are probably wrong but your self-entitlement blinded you to it.

Not sure why you think it is related to self-entitlement. Is it just simple expert opinion of traffic engineers and common sense. But tell yourself it is self-entitlement so that you don’t have to confront the facts, evidence and expert opinion contrary to your view.

I’m sure it would be hard to contemplate that all those times you drove self-satisfied with the cruise control set to the speed limit, forcing people to pass you on the right, you were really just being unsafe as confirmed by traffic engineers and common sense.

 

[T34ME]

Not sure why you think it is related to self-entitlement. Is it just simple expert opinion of traffic engineers and common sense. But tell yourself it is self-entitlement so that you don’t have to confront the facts, evidence and expert opinion contrary to your view.

None of the evidence you linked applies to the way I drive. And none it analyzes the way you drive. I could, but I won't, post links that show how speed and aggressive driving is the primary cause of accidents.

 

[Az_Rael]

I keep the belief that driving 65 mph in the carpool lane (again if there is a lot of traffic obviously that is perfectly appropriate) can be very unsafe.

Yes, I think it is unsafe to be going 65 in the carpool lane when the fast lane next to me is stopped or going 5mph. I tend to slow down a lot in the carpool lane in those situations. I am only comfortable with about a 40mph differential between me and the next dumba— who is about to try and illegally jump in the lane in front of me. Here in CA it is illegal to enter/exit not at the designated points.

The HOV Lane should be treated as a passing lane only for qualifying vehicles

The part I am not clear on for timed HOV lanes is do you still have to obey the double yellow no-crossing zone even if you are outside the HOV times. I tend to always obey the entrance/exit points even outside the HOV hours so they are hard to use as a “passing” lane. You get stuck in one for miles sometimes before you can get back out.

Frustrated Drivers Want Cops To Crackdown On Left Lane Slowpokes

"Transportation experts said roads are engineered for slower drivers on the right and passing on the left. "Therefore the volume increases when the capacity is being reduced, and you have problems of delays and congestion and road rage,” Dr. John Falcocchio, Professor of Transportation Engineering, NYU, said.

“You get these vigilantes who say, ‘I am staying in the left hand lane, I am going to do the speed limit, and too bad for everybody else,” one driver said." [you were quoted!]


You probably did. But your righteousness blinded you to it.

We aren’t talking about the “fast lane”. We are talking about the HOV lane. Do you think buses and those big van pools should be driving 80 in the HOV lane? It would be way easier if California built separated HOV lanes like we used to have in TX. Concrete wall between you and the fast lane makes it very obvious the HOV lane isn’t a passing lane.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Believe this thread supports the idea why we need autonomous driving.

So many different mind sets in the same lane:
I'm late, so will go as fast as I possibly can.
I don't like driving so close to the barrier, so I will go a safe and prudent speed.
The speed limit is posted 55, so I will never exceed 55.
The speed limit is posted 55, but I will determine for myself how much faster I can go without getting a ticket.
My motorcycle can lane split, so I do not care how fast everyone is going, I will just go between them.
My Prius grows extra bonus leaves when I drive with a light pedal. I want to break my record of 14 leaves on this trip.
Get off my lawn...I will drive at what ever speed I feel is correct. The rest of you can pound sand. If you blink your lights at me, I'll just slow down.
Can't drive too fast or I will spill my coffee.
My speed will be proportional/differential to the regular lane next to me. They slow down...I slow down.
Zombie driver on cell phone. Never know what they will do.
Driver zipping in and out of the HOV lane depending on which ever lane is going fastest at any given instance.

And on and on it goes. Seems everyone has a different opinion of the proper way to drive. No wonder we have thousands of accidents every day.

 

[cmaster]

I usually go about 80 mph in the car pool lane.

 

[ChrisH]

The HOV Lane should be treated as a passing lane only for qualifying vehicles. When traffic is heavy in the regular lanes you can stay there, but be behind the car in front of you, otherwise you are just creating more unsafe congestion.



While you may take comfort in your myopic Mr. Magoo self-righteousness, you are creating unsafe traffic congestion around you. Why do so many old people get that myopic self-righteousness? It’s like they reach a point where they stop learning and just insist that they are right about everything and have nothing to learn and can’t ever find a reason to change their mind. Weird.



OR I would add, speed up to a safe distance behind the car in front of you if the lanes to the right are significantly slower. This is a simple rule that creates a safer traffic flow.

What’s the point of the speed limit law then?

 

[Reid]

I see you're from California where I grew up as well, but in Washington, the flow of traffic is about 10mph slower than SoCal and 65mph is pretty normal flow even for carpool here.

In Washington the flow of traffic is about 0.5mph under the limit, police included. So 59.5MPH on that stretch of I-90 on Mercer Island

Also, the carpool lane isn’t designed to be the lane to speed in. It’s designed to be used by higher occupancy vehicles. Going above the speed limit by 5mph should be plenty.

No, it's not the "look at how ecologically-conscious I am!" lane. I don't think a specific number should be cited as 'plenty', as there's no reason for a slower driver to use it at all if there's no need to pass slower traffic. I quite regularly use the 'normal' lanes despite carpooling, if I have nobody to pass.

If traffic is flowing freely, you don't need the HOV lane, so it should be treated like any left lane; passing only (and in this case, passing for HOV, since non-qualifying vehicles are not allowed in it).

Once traffic begins to back up, of course, it becomes a more complicated question. Certainly, you're not expected to dive out of the HOV lane when doing 58 (let alone 62) in a 60 zone, hard on the brakes into a 5mph traffic jam, just because someone wants to pass you. To say nothing of the danger of the speed differential that already exists between the two lanes in heavy traffic.

Did you miss the part that it was inside a tunnel with a tight curve?

I don't live out that way but I think this is the curve.

It is, and it's not a remotely tight curve unless you're from Iowa or something. You probably shouldn't be doing 120mph through there, but then, that's why this accident happened in the first place. It's certainly not a reason to drive below the speed limit in the left lane.

My rule of thumb for the carpool lane is that it should be going at least at the flow of traffic. It's purpose is to provide a lower-congestion option for people that meet the requirements for it's use. If you are in the carpool lane and going slower than other traffic then you are deriving no benefit and likely annoying the people behind you.

Exactly, this seems reasonable.

My experience is that if I am going the speed limit in the fr left lane, say it is 65 and the truck limit is 55, some truckers (not all) will tailgate and blast their horn to get out of their way because THEY want to go 70/75 mph. What lane am I supposed to use?

I don't believe that is correct here in California as far as carpool lane. I am going to check with my local CHP office.

Slower traffic keep left. It's courteous, it complies with the law, it allows faster traffic to pass on the left as expected. You don't have people cutting all over the freeway to try to pass you, you don't have mile-long congestion of cars backing up in the left lane, and most of all, if traffic is flowing freely, it causes you no grief to move right.

Now, if in the scenario you posit, traffic is heavy and you're maintaining a reasonable speed and can't move right, by all means, carry on.

 

[ChrisH]

Again, why are all of these people saying it’s fine to drive over the speed limit? No one is really answering that.

 

[T34ME]

For your reference, I believe this is the law that Jeff is referring to. Any lawyers or law enforcement officers care to chime in?
Law section

Okay, I printed out this section of the vehicle code and had a nice chat with the watch commander of the local CHP substation. He said this code does not apply to Carpool lanes.

With regards to this section of the code on highways, he said that the left lane is a passing lane. The idea is to get around traffic as quickly as possible, at a speed within reason (which is left up to the CHP officer if observed). Technically, he said that a motorist cannot use the left lane as a travel lane whether going the posted speed limit, less than the speed limit, or more than the speed limit. You run the risk of being ticketed in any of these scenarios. The only exception is that if the right lane is so impacted with traffic that it is unsafe to move to the right lane, then it is perfectly legal to proceed in the left lane at the posted speed limit, not less than, not more than.

Regarding the freeway system in Southern California with 4/5/6 travel lanes in one direction, the code is difficult to enforce. He says they find that sometimes, a motorist will be going less than the speed limit in #1 lane and a motorist going more than the speed limit in #6 lane. He said rarely would CHP give a ticket for impeding traffic in this scenario since the freeway system tends to be a no man's land.

Regarding speed limit, the law is the law. However, the California Court System generally throws out speeding tickets that are 10 mph or less over the posted speed limit. They do this due to inaccuracies in radar systems, inaccuracies in onboard speedometers, changing tire sizes, and giving the driver the benefit of the doubt. Consequently, CHP officers will 'look the other way' if the motorist is not driving recklessly, if the speed is reasonable according to the individual officer (and this judgement can vary widely among officers), and the local conditions - weather, traffic density, time of day, etc. It's a judgement call by the officer.

Regarding Carpool lanes, the posted speed limit is the speed limit in the car pool lane. A motorist cannot be cited for driving the speed limit in the car pool lane. A motorist can be cited for driving slower than the speed limit particularly if he can move safely into an adjacent regular lane that is moving at reasonable speed. A motorist can be cited for driving faster than the speed limit in the carpool lane if done in a reckless manner - tailgating, weaving in and out of traffic, etc. HOWEVER, the Court System wields a double edged sword! Speeds 10 mph or less over the speed limit in the carpool lane are generally thrown out, and speeds 10 mph or less than the speed limit in the car pool lane are generally thrown out. So it is left to the Officers judgement, but usually speeds that vary from the posted speed limit, by 10 mph one way or the other, even in the carpool lane are usually overlooked. What will get you a citation in the carpool lane, he said, is tailgating, not having a sticker for a single occupant vehicle (having it in the glovebox doesn't count), or driving in a reckless manner - slow or fast. Everything is left to the officer's judgement.

He said that it appears that there are going to be fewer and fewer carpool stickers, for single occupants, issued and limited to 2 years per vehicle, due to the congestion in the carpool lanes during rush hours (which in Southern California is at least 12 hours a day!). He said personally it will make him happy because it will make his job easier.

Did I leave anything out?

 

[roblab]

Again, why are all of these people saying it’s fine to drive over the speed limit? No one is really answering that.

Because it is, by experience. It is fine where I live. I don't know about where you live. I follow CHP driving up Napa Valley (55 mph) doing 65 mph, with traffic following, traffic ahead, all doing the same. Part of the puzzle I didn't notice a lot is that the police try to aid the flow of traffic. This could mean stopping for coffee during periods of high traffic, as police presence slows traffic, which happens here. It also means not pulling people over unless they are driving dangerously, as a CHP by the side of the road slows traffic to below the speed limit and accidents occur for even a half hour after the police have moved on. Now, in Missouri, the State Troopers did not have this problem, but in CA, I see it all the time. The faster that people go, the greater the number of people that use the road, and the fewer new roads must be built, even. Or, conversely, since we can't afford new roads, we have to pack more people onto the roads we have. Speeding does it better than sitting in the three right lanes doing 5 mph.

And driving northern CA is nothing like the congestion and traffic in southern CA. Whole different scenario.

 

[bhzmark]

None of the evidence you linked applies to the way I drive. And none it analyzes the way you drive. I could, but I won't, post links that show how speed and aggressive driving is the primary cause of accidents.

We could compare a population that has enforced speed limits (enforced by the police, and enforced by left lane slow poke vigilantes), but no enforcement of the rule to keep right except to pass (e.g., the US), and compare to a population where they don't enforce the speed limits, or they are much higher, but they do enforce, and drivers religiously respect, the keep-right-except-to-pass-rule (e.g., Germany). Guess which has better safety statistics?

Going only the speed limit in the left lane even when it is a hov lane, when the flow of traffic is faster, as it often is, is unsafe.

Take Uber if you can't find it in you to drive with the flow of traffic, even when that is over the speed limit. And if you must threaten us with your driving, stay to the right unless you are passing.

If you are in any left lane and there is a string of people behind you, and no one in front of you, you are unsafe.

 

[McRat]

What is funny, is that in California, they write a lot of speeding tickets in HOV lanes. It's easier for them. I always thought that was weak, but they are there to issue as much paper as possible per hour, so you pick the easy targets. Park in one of the emergency turnouts, fire up the lidar, and gun them all, let God sort 'em out. Not exactly legal per CVC, but that's how it's done.

In California, RADAR/LIDAR is used as a validation. Think of it as a second witness. The trained officer sees a car they determine is speeding. Now he uses the RADAR/LIDAR to comfirm what his experience tells him. It's not legal just to gun everyone, because the RADAR/LIDAR can make mistakes. If it's not backed up by human eyes and experience, you write tickets to people obeying the law.

To bypass that, the officer just writes down, "Vehicle was going approximately 85mph as it went by. I confirmed with RADAR SN xxxx calibrated at the start of the shift, and it read 84mph."

It's not the truth, but c'est la vie.