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How fo fix all of the problems with Autopilot

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Well... someone could start by showing that the NHTSA has done so (which you haven't done) because the NHTSA isn't exactly shy about saying things like that, and in fact, to violate the consumer protection laws that Tesla is doing, they would NEED to have an explicit order from a government agency.

And second, they could screw right off, because the NHTSA has no jurisdiction over me or my car as I don't live in the USA.

Haven't we been over this before? The vast majority of the time confidential agreements are reached with the NHTSA so there are no resulting orders!

As to the NHTSA having no jurisdiction over you, you don't understand jurisdiction. It's the court who has jurisdiction -- the NHTSA is relied upon by Tesla as the reason they made the changes. And since Transport Canada relies heavily on the NHTSA to determine regulations in Canada, Tesla would say they implemented the changes to us too and Transport Canada would testify against you. Jurisdiction is irrelevant.

But if you are so confident in your position, why not just sue already rather than constantly complain (which gets you nowhere)? EDIT: I see you answered this in that you think complaining will get you somewhere -- good luck there.
 
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Lawsuits are a last resort, not a first option. I'm working my way through the process. We'll see if it gets as far as a lawsuit. I hope it won't need to.

Lawyers are always right, we know that. This is why nobody has ever lost in court, because their lawyers always get it right the first time. Especially companies that have removed features after sale... oh wait... that didn't go so well for Sony when they tried it... I guess Tesla has better lawyers though...

As for "arguing here"... if you don't like the argument. Don't respond. it's really that simple. The discussion doesn't bother me in the least. If it offends you, nobody is forcing you to read and respond.
Good for you. Tesla is going to continue to evolve their software and policies and we are all in for the ride. Other companies like Volvo do this behind closed doors and that's why they won't release their AP until 2020 or later.
 
I have only had my S for 4 months now. The only thing I really "lost" with AP and the 8.0 update is the restricted MPH on some roads and added nags. Sure it's annoying but I realize we are still in it's infancy and constant changes are being made. So i'm not bothered too much by it. Now if i had a 2014 and for a year did not have to deal with nags, MPH restrictions etc.........then yes I would be pissed. And I would have a legit complaint. I think that is where green1 is coming from.
 
I have only had my S for 4 months now. The only thing I really "lost" with AP and the 8.0 update is the restricted MPH on some roads and added nags. Sure it's annoying but I realize we are still in it's infancy and constant changes are being made. So i'm not bothered too much by it. Now if i had a 2014 and for a year did not have to deal with nags, MPH restrictions etc.........then yes I would be pissed. And I would have a legit complaint. I think that is where green1 is coming from.

Think of it this way. Say you bought a car 18 months ago that had a software feature we'll call autopilot which was an option you paid extra for. At some point after you bought it, the manufacturer determines that there is a safety hazard and as a result, they issue a voluntary recall and modify the software to address that hazard...and the result is that they impose nags and MPH restrictions. Have you lost capability? Absolutely. Are they within their legal rights to do so? Absolutely. and in this case, they aren't issuing a recall because what our theoretical driver has been using for the last 18 months has always been called Beta software and is explicitly NOT the final product. @green1 and others may be pissed about it, but they absolutely can do this...especially since the changes are apparently being done based on safety. The fact others feel that this is being too cautious is irrelevant. Companies are well within their rights to recall and change things. As a matter of fact, the government can (and regularly does) MANDATE that recalls take place.

For anyone who's ever operated in the aviation world (which is what the Tesla autopilot is starting to approach from a regulatory perspective), the government can not only mandate a recall (called an Airworthiness Directive), they can MANDATE that aircraft owners accomplish the recall within a certain period of time or the airplane is not legal to fly AND the aircraft owner HAS to pay for the parts and labor of the AD, NOT the aircraft manufacturer! Can you imagine if that happened in the auto industry?

A plane I used to own had an AD issued last year which has to be accomplished in the next 12 months. The cost of compliance is $25,000! And if you don't do it, you can't legally fly the airplane. And if you try to sell the plane before the 12 months expire, everyone knows about the AD and your plane's value is decreased because of the pending required maintenance action.

Why is this stuff done in aviation? Because of the perceived threat of unsafe aircraft not only killing the people on them, but also people on the ground should the plane crash. As Autopilot and more enhanced full self driving capabilities become a reality in surface transportation, I fully expect that there will be a similar approach of regulation and mandatory updates or changes to those control systems as deficiencies are identified. I only hope that the auto industry continues its present practice of the company having to cover the cost of the repair/adjustment vice the consumer having to eat the cost as is the norm in the aviation industry.

Lest @green1 say that this is not legal, a violation of consumer protection laws (which do apply to aircraft) and that he lives in Canada and not the USA...that is exactly what happens to aircraft in Canada as well. If it is a plane manufactured in the USA (where the FAA is the controlling government agency), when the AD is issued it is mandatory for all US-registered airplanes. For planes registered in Canada (or any other country), the local regulatory authority (Transport Canada for example), simply takes the US FAA AD and issues their own quoting the US document and mandates it on Canadian registered aircraft. This is all perfectly legal and there is long case law that says it is legal because the changes are mandated in the interest of safety for the general public. I could make the same argument for Autopilot capabilities because we are now talking increasingly complex, computer control systems for vehicles.
 
Think of it this way. Say you bought a car 18 months ago that had a software feature we'll call autopilot which was an option you paid extra for. At some point after you bought it, the manufacturer determines that there is a safety hazard and as a result, they issue a voluntary recall and modify the software to address that hazard...and the result is that they impose nags and MPH restrictions. Have you lost capability? Absolutely. Are they within their legal rights to do so? Absolutely. and in this case, they aren't issuing a recall because what our theoretical driver has been using for the last 18 months has always been called Beta software and is explicitly NOT the final product. @green1 and others may be pissed about it, but they absolutely can do this...especially since the changes are apparently being done based on safety. The fact others feel that this is being too cautious is irrelevant. Companies are well within their rights to recall and change things. As a matter of fact, the government can (and regularly does) MANDATE that recalls take place.

For anyone who's ever operated in the aviation world (which is what the Tesla autopilot is starting to approach from a regulatory perspective), the government can not only mandate a recall (called an Airworthiness Directive), they can MANDATE that aircraft owners accomplish the recall within a certain period of time or the airplane is not legal to fly AND the aircraft owner HAS to pay for the parts and labor of the AD, NOT the aircraft manufacturer! Can you imagine if that happened in the auto industry?

A plane I used to own had an AD issued last year which has to be accomplished in the next 12 months. The cost of compliance is $25,000! And if you don't do it, you can't legally fly the airplane. And if you try to sell the plane before the 12 months expire, everyone knows about the AD and your plane's value is decreased because of the pending required maintenance action.

Why is this stuff done in aviation? Because of the perceived threat of unsafe aircraft not only killing the people on them, but also people on the ground should the plane crash. As Autopilot and more enhanced full self driving capabilities become a reality in surface transportation, I fully expect that there will be a similar approach of regulation and mandatory updates or changes to those control systems as deficiencies are identified. I only hope that the auto industry continues its present practice of the company having to cover the cost of the repair/adjustment vice the consumer having to eat the cost as is the norm in the aviation industry.

Lest @green1 say that this is not legal, a violation of consumer protection laws (which do apply to aircraft) and that he lives in Canada and not the USA...that is exactly what happens to aircraft in Canada as well. If it is a plane manufactured in the USA (where the FAA is the controlling government agency), when the AD is issued it is mandatory for all US-registered airplanes. For planes registered in Canada (or any other country), the local regulatory authority (Transport Canada for example), simply takes the US FAA AD and issues their own quoting the US document and mandates it on Canadian registered aircraft. This is all perfectly legal and there is long case law that says it is legal because the changes are mandated in the interest of safety for the general public. I could make the same argument for Autopilot capabilities because we are now talking increasingly complex, computer control systems for vehicles.
How many of those aviation MANDATORY feature removals were NOT accompanied by an official government body asking for it?

This whole "the government forced Tesla to do it but it's a secret so they won't say" bit is conspiracy theory garbage at it's finest.

this was NOT a government mandated change. This was Tesla's PR department.
 
This whole "the government forced Tesla to do it but it's a secret so they won't say" bit is conspiracy theory garbage at it's finest. this was NOT a government mandated change. This was Tesla's PR department.

Now we bring in conspiracy theories, Alex Jones? The NHTSA has never reached agreements with automakers that are confidential and lead to changes? What world do you live in?

Your theory sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Mine is based on real world facts -- and we all know what it is going on in the background here. Again:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM533397/INIM-PE16007-64338.pdf
 
People keep posting that document. Nowhere in it does it say that they are secretly ordering Tesla to cripple AP functionality.

Show me the part of that document that says that. It says they were investigating, which is normal. IF they found something, there would be a PUBLIC notice stating that a change is required. No public notice has ever been made. No recall has been issued. If this is the best you have to prove that "the government made them do it" then you have NOTHING.

And it gets better. Not only has the NHTSA never once in it's entire history ordered a secret recall. They've also never ordered a mandatory one (from the consumer's viewpoint).

So for your conspiracy theory to be accurate the following would have to be true:
- For the first time in the entire history of the automotive industry, the NHTSA ordered a recall without telling anyone other than the manufacturer.
- For the first time in the entire history of the automotive industry, the NHTSA ordered that this be mandatory on all customers, and not voluntary
- For the first time in the entire history of the automotive industry, Transport Canada ALSO issued a mandatory recall without telling anyone other than the manufacturer.
- For the first time in the entire history of the automotive industry, Transport Canada ALSO made it mandatory on all customers and not voluntary (which, just FYI, Transport Canada doesn't even have the legal authority to do at the moment)

Yeah, that sounds FAR more plausible than that Tesla did this all on their own to try to save face on a couple of bad PR stories...
 
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Drklain, thanks for the well reasoned post. I have no doubt Tesla has some legal standing that will ultimately allow them to do whatever they want to do. I'm sure you are also aware that won't eliminate the threat of fighting a lengthy and embarrassing class action suit if buyers are sufficiently motivated.

The fundamental issue is that we now have 3 distinctly different definitions of Autopilot.

1) What Tesla thought it could do, announced it, demonstrated it, and hyped the tweet out of it.

2) What it can actually do, which was compelling enough to some of us to cause a purchase.

3) What Tesla now would like it to do...which is less by the day. This might be because of pressure from regulators, risk assessment people internally, to motivate 2.0 sales, who knows because Tesla has publicly said f-all and tried to slip this through with updates for the suckas who update without checking here first.

If 2.0 was actually working, I suspect Tesla might make some sweetheart deals to quell the people most affected...but at the moment, even gimped 1.0 >> 2.0
 
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How many of those aviation MANDATORY feature removals were NOT accompanied by an official government body asking for it?

Actually talk to the Cessna 300/400 series aircraft owners about the Cessna SID inspection program -- which was mandated by Cessna and NOT any government or NPRM (it was not an AD but was a SID and became mandatory for all pilots. The crux of the issue was that Cessna changed the maintenance schedule for older aircraft requiring VERY expensive inspections that required removal of the wing. Since you have to do required maintenance to be legal, it had the effect of being mandatory or the planes were grounded. Lots of upset pilots. Note I'm simplifying complex regulations here but pilots on the board will know what I'm talking about).

I am NOT saying that the government mandated the changes that have been made to date. I am saying that this may happen in the future and is perfectly legal. But I am also saying that a car company can issue a voluntary recall today without a mandate of the government and require that the recall be done the next time you bring the car in for service. I am also saying that in this case Tesla didn't even do that because they didn't have to. What they did was update BETA (read TEST if you don't know what BETA means) software that they have ALLOWED you to use in advance of the release of FINAL software AFTER you acknowledged that this was BETA software. While it was accomplished via an OTA, this is NOT the same thing as removing functionality from other parts of the car because the Autopilot software is EXPLICITLY in BETA status and you have acknowledged that. That means that they are perfectly in their rights to change it and/or remove capabilities that are in the current version of the BETA such that those changes happen to your car and you do NOT have a legal leg to stand on that they have taken something away when they have not yet delivered the final product to you.

I do agree with you and others that it sucks that Tesla is still calling this Beta software after all this time, but Tesla is certainly within their rights to do that. You clearly don't agree with that interpretation and that's fine. I look forward to seeing you prove the rest of us wrong with something besides your opinions like actually prevailing over Tesla....
 
car company can issue a voluntary recall today without a mandate of the government and require that the recall be done the next time you bring the car in for service.
Actually, they can't. They can in fact issue a voluntary recall. but they can NOT require that the recall be done, ever. There is no law allowing them to do ANY work on your vehicle without your express authorization, and in fact there are many laws against them doing work you haven't authorized.
 
Are these changes making anyone happy? The best I see are "I can live with it." Find me an example of "I love the new restrictons." New owners rightly love their new car, but older owners are getting disgruntled. New owners turn into old owners with time.
I am not arguing if the change is good or bad. I am sure if enough people complain, Tesla will listen and do something (if they are allowed legally).

What I am arguing is that Tesla is allowing all of us to use this awesome technology as it is being developed and they will continue to make changes. No other car company does that currently. So it is a different model all together. Like someone else said, this is beta software and they are within their right to make changes to it.

I just bought a car with AP2. Tesla said (still says) on their website it will be active in Dec. Do I think it will be? No. I know how software goes. I am expecting it will be delayed. Will I be mad? No. I know the price of being at the forefront of technology. You have to be able to deal with these kinds of things, and find the joy in other things in life.
 
Ho hum, another thread lost to endless bellyaching that gadgets like the Tesla are a combination of hardware and software. Yes, the software changes. Everybody knows that when they buy the vehicle. Sometimes things get better and sometimes things get worse and sometimes both, and people don't agree about what's what.

Too bad. It's a new world. If you want a car, buy a car. A Tesla is not a car as you knew it. If you buy a Tesla, you have to trust them to do the right thing. If you don't trust them, why are you driving something that they can drive off a cliff or explode if they want to? Seriously, get a grip.

One day there will be a serious security breach and Tesla will turn off autopilot on the whole fleet and cap the speed at 40mph (60mph on freeways) until they figure it out and determine things are safe. Maybe even more restrictive than that. You know that's going to happen some day, and there's not a damn thing anybody can do about it. If it's going to make you go wild, then drive something else.
 
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Now we bring in conspiracy theories, Alex Jones? The NHTSA has never reached agreements with automakers that are confidential and lead to changes? What world do you live in?

Your theory sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Mine is based on real world facts -- and we all know what it is going on in the background here. Again:

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM533397/INIM-PE16007-64338.pdf

You are way off on this one. Most agreements on recalls and other issues are reached after negotiations with NHTSA behind closed doors. I have first hand experience with this process and it involved an issue that is still not public knowledge to this day. If the problem became more serious in the market, NHTSA would push for a full recall...at present, they were satisfied by a running change to ensure all future production doesn't suffer the same flaw. That is the typical process.
 
You are way off on this one. Most agreements on recalls and other issues are reached after negotiations with NHTSA behind closed doors. I have first hand experience with this process and it involved an issue that is still not public knowledge to this day. If the problem became more serious in the market, NHTSA would push for a full recall...at present, they were satisfied by a running change to ensure all future production doesn't suffer the same flaw. That is the typical process.

You misread my post. I'm saying the same thing you are -- except that you have first hand experience. I do not. Before I made the post that confused you, I said this:

Haven't we been over this before? The vast majority of the time confidential agreements are reached with the NHTSA so there are no resulting orders!

Your post should be directed at @green1 and not me. But thank you for your comment and first hand knowledge of how the process works. It's exactly as I suspected.
 
You misread my post. I'm saying the same thing you are -- except that you have first hand experience. I do not. Before I made the post that confused you, I said this:



Your post should be directed at @green1 and not me. But thank you for your comment and first hand knowledge of how the process works. It's exactly as I suspected.

Sorry, misread. It's harder to concentrate now that I have to steer. :eek:
 
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This topic is attracting green1 like flies to *sugar*. While he is ranting and raving about lost features - God only knows what features he is talking about - I am enjoying my AP everyday. Improved my quality of life by reducing my commute stress significantly. I bought it only for AP. My next car will also be a Tesla only for AP.