kavyboy
Active Member
So when people ask about the car, I guess I would have to say that I should not have bought it, and I that I can not recommend it. That will be great for sales.Exactly! If you can't deal with this, don't buy a tesla.
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So when people ask about the car, I guess I would have to say that I should not have bought it, and I that I can not recommend it. That will be great for sales.Exactly! If you can't deal with this, don't buy a tesla.
Well... someone could start by showing that the NHTSA has done so (which you haven't done) because the NHTSA isn't exactly shy about saying things like that, and in fact, to violate the consumer protection laws that Tesla is doing, they would NEED to have an explicit order from a government agency.
And second, they could screw right off, because the NHTSA has no jurisdiction over me or my car as I don't live in the USA.
Good for you. Tesla is going to continue to evolve their software and policies and we are all in for the ride. Other companies like Volvo do this behind closed doors and that's why they won't release their AP until 2020 or later.Lawsuits are a last resort, not a first option. I'm working my way through the process. We'll see if it gets as far as a lawsuit. I hope it won't need to.
Lawyers are always right, we know that. This is why nobody has ever lost in court, because their lawyers always get it right the first time. Especially companies that have removed features after sale... oh wait... that didn't go so well for Sony when they tried it... I guess Tesla has better lawyers though...
As for "arguing here"... if you don't like the argument. Don't respond. it's really that simple. The discussion doesn't bother me in the least. If it offends you, nobody is forcing you to read and respond.
It depends how many people say that. No company can make everyone happy.So when people ask about the car, I guess I would have to say that I should not have bought it, and I that I can not recommend it. That will be great for sales.
I have only had my S for 4 months now. The only thing I really "lost" with AP and the 8.0 update is the restricted MPH on some roads and added nags. Sure it's annoying but I realize we are still in it's infancy and constant changes are being made. So i'm not bothered too much by it. Now if i had a 2014 and for a year did not have to deal with nags, MPH restrictions etc.........then yes I would be pissed. And I would have a legit complaint. I think that is where green1 is coming from.
How many of those aviation MANDATORY feature removals were NOT accompanied by an official government body asking for it?Think of it this way. Say you bought a car 18 months ago that had a software feature we'll call autopilot which was an option you paid extra for. At some point after you bought it, the manufacturer determines that there is a safety hazard and as a result, they issue a voluntary recall and modify the software to address that hazard...and the result is that they impose nags and MPH restrictions. Have you lost capability? Absolutely. Are they within their legal rights to do so? Absolutely. and in this case, they aren't issuing a recall because what our theoretical driver has been using for the last 18 months has always been called Beta software and is explicitly NOT the final product. @green1 and others may be pissed about it, but they absolutely can do this...especially since the changes are apparently being done based on safety. The fact others feel that this is being too cautious is irrelevant. Companies are well within their rights to recall and change things. As a matter of fact, the government can (and regularly does) MANDATE that recalls take place.
For anyone who's ever operated in the aviation world (which is what the Tesla autopilot is starting to approach from a regulatory perspective), the government can not only mandate a recall (called an Airworthiness Directive), they can MANDATE that aircraft owners accomplish the recall within a certain period of time or the airplane is not legal to fly AND the aircraft owner HAS to pay for the parts and labor of the AD, NOT the aircraft manufacturer! Can you imagine if that happened in the auto industry?
A plane I used to own had an AD issued last year which has to be accomplished in the next 12 months. The cost of compliance is $25,000! And if you don't do it, you can't legally fly the airplane. And if you try to sell the plane before the 12 months expire, everyone knows about the AD and your plane's value is decreased because of the pending required maintenance action.
Why is this stuff done in aviation? Because of the perceived threat of unsafe aircraft not only killing the people on them, but also people on the ground should the plane crash. As Autopilot and more enhanced full self driving capabilities become a reality in surface transportation, I fully expect that there will be a similar approach of regulation and mandatory updates or changes to those control systems as deficiencies are identified. I only hope that the auto industry continues its present practice of the company having to cover the cost of the repair/adjustment vice the consumer having to eat the cost as is the norm in the aviation industry.
Lest @green1 say that this is not legal, a violation of consumer protection laws (which do apply to aircraft) and that he lives in Canada and not the USA...that is exactly what happens to aircraft in Canada as well. If it is a plane manufactured in the USA (where the FAA is the controlling government agency), when the AD is issued it is mandatory for all US-registered airplanes. For planes registered in Canada (or any other country), the local regulatory authority (Transport Canada for example), simply takes the US FAA AD and issues their own quoting the US document and mandates it on Canadian registered aircraft. This is all perfectly legal and there is long case law that says it is legal because the changes are mandated in the interest of safety for the general public. I could make the same argument for Autopilot capabilities because we are now talking increasingly complex, computer control systems for vehicles.
This whole "the government forced Tesla to do it but it's a secret so they won't say" bit is conspiracy theory garbage at it's finest. this was NOT a government mandated change. This was Tesla's PR department.
Are these changes making anyone happy? The best I see are "I can live with it." Find me an example of "I love the new restrictons." New owners rightly love their new car, but older owners are getting disgruntled. New owners turn into old owners with time.It depends how many people say that. No company can make everyone happy.
How many of those aviation MANDATORY feature removals were NOT accompanied by an official government body asking for it?
Actually, they can't. They can in fact issue a voluntary recall. but they can NOT require that the recall be done, ever. There is no law allowing them to do ANY work on your vehicle without your express authorization, and in fact there are many laws against them doing work you haven't authorized.car company can issue a voluntary recall today without a mandate of the government and require that the recall be done the next time you bring the car in for service.
I am not arguing if the change is good or bad. I am sure if enough people complain, Tesla will listen and do something (if they are allowed legally).Are these changes making anyone happy? The best I see are "I can live with it." Find me an example of "I love the new restrictons." New owners rightly love their new car, but older owners are getting disgruntled. New owners turn into old owners with time.
Now we bring in conspiracy theories, Alex Jones? The NHTSA has never reached agreements with automakers that are confidential and lead to changes? What world do you live in?
Your theory sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. Mine is based on real world facts -- and we all know what it is going on in the background here. Again:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM533397/INIM-PE16007-64338.pdf
You are way off on this one. Most agreements on recalls and other issues are reached after negotiations with NHTSA behind closed doors. I have first hand experience with this process and it involved an issue that is still not public knowledge to this day. If the problem became more serious in the market, NHTSA would push for a full recall...at present, they were satisfied by a running change to ensure all future production doesn't suffer the same flaw. That is the typical process.
Haven't we been over this before? The vast majority of the time confidential agreements are reached with the NHTSA so there are no resulting orders!
You misread my post. I'm saying the same thing you are -- except that you have first hand experience. I do not. Before I made the post that confused you, I said this:
Your post should be directed at @green1 and not me. But thank you for your comment and first hand knowledge of how the process works. It's exactly as I suspected.