How Green is EV ownership

[Dborn]

I’d have more other than our local power company SAPN won’t permit more than 30kw

Does that still apply if you don’t connect to the grid? I wonder whether you could establish a closed network with battery, say to just charge your cars, or feed a workshop.
I have 6kw on my roof but regrettably cannot expand further due to lack of appropriate surface area.

 

[paulp]

Does that still apply if you don’t connect to the grid? I wonder whether you could establish a closed network with battery, say to just charge your cars, or feed a workshop.
I have 6kw on my roof but regrettably cannot expand further due to lack of appropriate surface area.

No doesn’t apply if you don’t connect to the grid. Only problem is powerwall doesn’t yet do 3 phase, so that makes my aircon tricky. Plus I’d need more like a powerpack than a powerwall.

 

[eclectricdave]

We have a non-grid connected system in Melbourne. In fact we have been off-grid since the early 90s. Around 5kWs of PV. This is enough to provide power for the house & charge the car for 9 months of the year. The other 3 months needs help from a generating set. Ive finished working & dont do much driving. Every week or so I go to a country property where there is another solar system around 5kWs and batteries that feed selected appliances and charge the EV in a day or two depending on time of year. There is grid power here but is not used to export surplus energy.In winter I sometimes charge at off pk times. I bought one of the VASS Li 400Ahr 48V bats which will enable winter charging in future (it will be charge between visits). The lead acid batts store about 50kWhrs The point is that nearly all my driving is done with PV derived energy. It would be good if Superchargers used renewable energy wheeled via the grid

 

[garyjac]

Sounds like everyone here at least, is headed off grid. This is the only way to (literally and metaphorically) take the power away from the big companies. Green,,,yes and becoming greener...

 

[Shock-On-T]

You actually tried to win a logical argument with lefty greenies? Wow. The lefty’s are all brain-dead. You don’t stand a chance!
You want green power? We need to go nuclear, now. Side benefits will include massive amounts of power for desal plants to drought proof this nation which should be a top priority.
Meantime, I am happy shifting my pollution out of the city to the bush, reducing smog and not feeding my enemies on the other side of the globe. My solar/Tesla battery install at home offsets about 35% of my consumption and I use the solar farm in Chatswood quite often. So, I am doing my bit.

Lefty greenies have their hearts in the right place, and some also use their brains.
But the real nerds who'll solve this problem are the people who want so solve problems for the joy of problem solving. The problem of emission control is a mathematical one.
It's a multivariate analysis of risk, cost, urgency, feasibility, reliability, political ability, etc etc.
It's not a "do what feels right" situation. It's a "do what has the best chance of success" situation.

 

[reecho]

The biggest nuclear plant the world has seen has already been built.

It's called the sun......

 

[Dborn]

Now we just need a nuclear fusion plant to supply unlimited energy on earth. The sun is the one in the sky, not on earth.

 

[WhiteStar]

Now we just need a nuclear fusion plant

Yeah. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[EcoCloudIT]

@WhiteStar whilst I don't want nuclear of any sort there is a big difference between fission and fusion (fusion being the holy grail and not yet available)......that's my understanding anyhow....

 

[WhiteStar]

@WhiteStar whilst I don't want nuclear of any sort there is a big difference between fission and fusion (fusion being the holy grail and not yet available)......that's my understanding anyhow....

Yes apparently it’s been rebranded LENR (Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions)...kind of like HELE (High Efficiency, Low Emissions) coal plants. Gotta wonder who thought that one up.

 

[Zythryn]

Now we just need a nuclear fusion plant to supply unlimited energy on earth. The sun is the one in the sky, not on earth.

Why?

How does a coal plant make electricity?
My understanding is that it creates heat which turns turbines which run generators.
The sun is the primary energy creator which my solar panels use to create a DC current.

I see no need for a power plant on earth to create all of our power.

 

[Blue heaven]

Yes apparently it’s been rebranded LENR (Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions)...kind of like HELE (High Efficiency, Low Emissions) coal plants. Gotta wonder who thought that one up.

An EGTT

 

[wdolson]

@WhiteStar whilst I don't want nuclear of any sort there is a big difference between fission and fusion (fusion being the holy grail and not yet available)......that's my understanding anyhow....

For the last 60 years or so the necessary breakthrough to make fusion energy generation possible was just around the corner. It probably isn't going to happen any time soon.

Technologically nuclear fission can be done at a reasonable price, but politically it's very expensive. In addition, we have a growing waste problem. There are some reactor designs that would burn up the waste, but again they can't be built for political reasons.

 

[Vostok]

The simple answer is - let’s all go back to the Stone Age.

A ridiculous response. Plenty of people live off-grid already, and they don’t live in the Stone Age. Every solar or solar+battery installation reduces the consumption of coal-fired power, and that is A Good Thing. And over time we can reduce coal-fired power to zero.

Once nuclear fusion is solved

Nuclear fusion has always been about 20 years away for the past 40 years. It is the energy source of the future, and always will be.

All the renewables are very dirty at some point in their life cycle.

And all of the alternatives are much dirtier and much more complicated and involve middlemen and centralised distribution and control. If it’s a choice of which has the least lifecycle pollution impact it’s no contest. If it’s a choice of which gives individuals more freedom it’s no contest.

It’s odd how when I discuss my BEV with some people they suddenly become eco-warriors wanting to know what the lifecycle emission and pollution profile is like and yet they never ask the same questions about their ICE, nor the fuel that supplies it.

Please don’t come all sanctimonious on me by quoting reports from interest groups. Your side of things has been doing that for the longest period. We are just taking a leaf out of your book.. who was it who said “there are lies, damn lies, and statistics “?

My “side”? Really? I wasn’t quoting reports but did my own primary research and analysis from the nuclear industry’s own source data, namely data from the World Nuclear Association (world-nuclear.org) which is an industry association that promotes nuclear power and has members from all parts of the nuclear cycle, and the International Atomic Energy Agency (iaea.org). All the data is there from reactors around the world, I processed it, and produced the facts in my post.

If the nuclear industry is damned by their own statistics then so be it. If I am taking a “side” it is an evidence-based “side” backed up by factual data. And I note you did not rebut or dispute any of those facts.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Nuclear fusion IS the holy grail, but like the actual holy grail has proven to be illusive.

Solar requires a large surface area and a way to store the power overnight. Hard to do somewhere like South Korea, Hong Kong, England etc.
Australia is pretty much the perfect country for solar.

 

[lolachampcar]

I quick comment on the OP, just sit at a light with your windows down and breath. You'll have your answer.

Yes, I know the power for your BeV still comes from somewhere (in my case, panels on my porch) but no matter where the power comes from, all of us driving BeVs prevents all of us from sitting at a traffic light (or driving down the interstate) sucking down emissions. Wow have we lost our way that we even debate very simple concepts and feel the need to take and defend sides. Funny world.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Why?

How does a coal plant make electricity?
My understanding is that it creates heat which turns turbines which run generators.
The sun is the primary energy creator which my solar panels use to create a DC current.

I see no need for a power plant on earth to create all of our power.

The need for a power plant on earth is that the power plant in the sky is below the horizon half the time.

Solar looks cheap and feasible when it is shaving a few percent off a coal-fired powerstation, but to go 100% you need storage, which is horrendously expensive.

What we should do is:
- reduce energy use by subsidising energy saving tech and insulation
- use as much solar as possible
- use pumped hydro to allow even more solar
- use as much wind as possible
- make up the rest by gas power plants
- consider a low carbon solution like fission
- keep working on fusion

 

[EcoCloudIT]

@ShockOnT - Elon already said what he thinks re China on solar and why it can still work:

 

[Shock-On-T]

@ShockOnT - Elon already said what he thinks re China on solar and why it can still work:

Yes but id be curious as to his solution for densely populated countries that don’t happen to have a desert within power line range, such as South Korea, Japan, England, Singapore, Italy, Greece, Switzerland, or any country with a long dark winter like Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Canada, etc.

But the real showstopper is storage. Even a country as perfectly suited for solar as Australia cannot store the energy.

Back of the envelope, if Australia uses 10kWh per household between 4pm and 8am, and there are about 5 million households that’s 50 gWh of storage needed. That’s around 5 million powerwalls.

Installed that would cost $50 billion, with replacements needed every 10-15 years.

About 3 coal plants could service that same overnight burden. 2GW each is 6GW, which in 16 hours overnight is 96gWh.

Even the big Tesla battery in SA has enough storage for 10 minutes or so. You’d need 100 of them just to overnight that low population state.

 

[EcoCloudIT]

@ShockOnT

• Elon was referring to China, not the other countries you listed specifically, however many you did list are in a similar situation, secondly one doesn't always have to use solar, there is wave, hydro, wind to add to the mix etc.
• Storage is dropping dramatically in cost, we're only just started on this, 10 years from now maybe $50 a kw is achievable (with a break through or two)
• SA isn't meant to be a continuous supply system, it is meant to fix the peak price power gauging that occurs and it is performing spot on for this

We use 10kw's when the sun isn't shinning not including the 2x cars. Add the 2x cars to the mix and we're using 24kw when the sun isn't shining (assuming no day time sun charging on the cars).....therefore a 10kw solar array and 2x PW2 would effectively put us off-grid.....imagine in 10 years if battery storage for 20kw is only $2,000 (with profit and built in, inverter/thermal management etc.) and a solar 10kw system has dropped to $5k installed....would drop my average cost per month to $35 (assuming you replace the battery storage each 10 years and get 25 years out of the solar panels). Even in the dead of winter I'll be still effectively off-grid (and I'm Melbourne).....it's highly possible.....

Even 2x PW2 now is $23,000 installed, Tier 1 Solar 10KW panels is say $18,000....replace batteries each 10 years, assume no price drop on anything and over 25 years (under full warranty on the lot) the average cost is $250 per month.....this will give one an average of 29kw of night supply and 25+ kw of day supply....if someone is using 50kw per day now that will cost on average around Oz drawing from the grid about $425 per month...I know these are big daily numbers on electricity use however as we all move to EVs the norm may be 2x EVs at home and using 50kw's per day will be closer to the norm.....it's what we use.