How hard is to replace HPWC with Nema 14-50?

[jboy210]

Hi,

Electrician is supposed to be coming over next week to do preliminary work to get my HPWC installed. Excited to get the HPWC installed, but may need to convert over to NEMA 14-50 to be able to charge other brands some time in the future.

Is there anything I need to ensure the electrician does to ensure the HPWC install does not preclude switching to the NEMA 14-50 in the future?

 

[iluvmacs]

Basically just make sure that they pull a neutral wire over as well -- it's needed in a 14-50, but not in the HPWC -- so for now, it will just sit there capped off.

 

[jboy210]

Basically just make sure that they pull a neutral wire over as well -- it's needed in a 14-50, but not in the HPWC -- so for now, it will just sit there capped off.

OK. Thanks!

 

[bob_p]

One possibility to consider - have them install a 14-50 outlet, and then instead of hardwiring the HPWC, have them create 14-50 cable, connect that inside the HPWC, and then plug the HPWC into the 14-50 outlet.

Then, if you even need to uninstall the HPWC, all you need to do is unplug it from the 14-50 outlet, remove the HPWC from the wall, and patch the mounting holes.

If you hardwire the HPWC, you'll have a larger uninstallation challenge - removing the HPWC from the wall, having an electrician disconnect the electric wiring (which may require a metal conduit outside of the wall), and then repairing the larger area of damage from the HPWC installation.

For our referral HPWC, we're considering mounting it next to our 14-50 outlet and doing this, rather than doing a direct connection to the power.

 

[brkaus]

One possibility to consider - have them install a 14-50 outlet, and then instead of hardwiring the HPWC, have them create 14-50 cable, connect that inside the HPWC, and then plug the HPWC into the 14-50 outlet.

Then, if you even need to uninstall the HPWC, all you need to do is unplug it from the 14-50 outlet, remove the HPWC from the wall, and patch the mounting holes.

If you hardwire the HPWC, you'll have a larger uninstallation challenge - removing the HPWC from the wall, having an electrician disconnect the electric wiring (which may require a metal conduit outside of the wall), and then repairing the larger area of damage from the HPWC installation.

For our referral HPWC, we're considering mounting it next to our 14-50 outlet and doing this, rather than doing a direct connection to the power.

Giving up 48a Charging (60a breaker) with this approach.

This is fine for most people. I have a WC on a 50a breaker due to utility rates. I survive fine.

But need to make that clear.

 

[P85_DA]

Hi,

Electrician is supposed to be coming over next week to do preliminary work to get my HPWC installed. Excited to get the HPWC installed, but may need to convert over to NEMA 14-50 to be able to charge other brands some time in the future.

Is there anything I need to ensure the electrician does to ensure the HPWC install does not preclude switching to the NEMA 14-50 in the future?

Hi,

Electrician is supposed to be coming over next week to do preliminary work to get my HPWC installed. Excited to get the HPWC installed, but may need to convert over to NEMA 14-50 to be able to charge other brands some time in the future.

Is there anything I need to ensure the electrician does to ensure the HPWC install does not preclude switching to the NEMA 14-50 in the future?

Also make sure wire size is #6 and #8 for ground ..the WC can take larger size wire but the 14-50 may not

 

[iluvmacs]

One possibility to consider - have them install a 14-50 outlet, and then instead of hardwiring the HPWC, have them create 14-50 cable, connect that inside the HPWC, and then plug the HPWC into the 14-50 outlet.

Worth noting that this will void the UL listing mark on the HPWC.

 

[SSedan]

One possibility to consider - have them install a 14-50 outlet, and then instead of hardwiring the HPWC, have them create 14-50 cable, connect that inside the HPWC, and then plug the HPWC into the 14-50 outlet.

Then, if you even need to uninstall the HPWC, all you need to do is unplug it from the 14-50 outlet, remove the HPWC from the wall, and patch the mounting holes.

If you hardwire the HPWC, you'll have a larger uninstallation challenge - removing the HPWC from the wall, having an electrician disconnect the electric wiring (which may require a metal conduit outside of the wall), and then repairing the larger area of damage from the HPWC installation.

For our referral HPWC, we're considering mounting it next to our 14-50 outlet and doing this, rather than doing a direct connection to the power.

The pigtail on a wall connector is a poor solution and I doubt even meets code and it will still need to be hung so the lack of wall repair if removed angle is completely invalid.

I would install a wall connector at more than 50amps if you can with the extra unused wire as noted. Swapping in a 14-50 and a smaller breaker are a minutes long project if the time comes that with care and research anyone capable of turning a screwdriver should be able to handle.
Take an electrician as long to write the quote and bill as do the work. Now you might get into a minimum billing block and that will vary by company. If you are flexible and can be home when they finish a job early and have an hour to kill spur of the moment I bet it can be done cheap.
Seriously an outlet and break is 15minutes on the high side and a couple screw holes in a garage wall...........who cares and it is a $2 tube of nail hole filler if you do.

 

[brkaus]

Tell the electrician- “I’m planning on moving in two years, I’d like this setup so it can be swapped out for a 14-50 in the future”. How much would it cost in the future to do that?

Of course, option 2 is to simply have it capped when you move.

 

[jboy210]

I considered the 14-50 and pigtail to HPWC. But the electrician seemed lukewarm to the idea, and was concerned that the city inspector might have an issue with it.

One other question. If I go with a 40 Amp breaker now to ensure I don't trip anything, can use this breaker with a 14-50, or must I use a 50 Amp breaker

 

[P85_DA]

I considered the 14-50 and pigtail to HPWC. But the electrician seemed lukewarm to the idea, and was concerned that the city inspector might have an issue with it.

One other question. If I go with a 40 Amp breaker now to ensure I don't trip anything, can use this breaker with a 14-50, or must I use a 50 Amp breaker

You need to use 50a breaker ..I know some folks but a 40a and label outlet but I don’t recommend..the cost difference btw 40 and 50 breaker is negligible

 

[brkaus]

I considered the 14-50 and pigtail to HPWC. But the electrician seemed lukewarm to the idea, and was concerned that the city inspector might have an issue with it.

One other question. If I go with a 40 Amp breaker now to ensure I don't trip anything, can use this breaker with a 14-50, or must I use a 50 Amp breaker

It’s perfectly legal to put 40a breaker on a 14-50. Charge at 32a. But I wouldn’t want to do it. Why are you asking?

 

[bob_p]

Sounds like the pigtail to 14-50 outlet is out then.

Since receiving our first Tesla, I've moved once. The first house had the HPWC installed.

Before moving into the new house, we lived temporarily in a condo, which had a 14-50 outlet in the garage, using a UMC for charging.

And we had the HPWC re-installed in the new house. And a few months, it was replaced with a Gen 2 HPWC, because of the incompatibilities between (MCU2?) recently built Tesla vehicles and the Gen 1 HPWCs.

So we've had experience in installation/de-installation.

For the HPWC in the first house, rather than digging through the walls to run new conduit, the electrician ran conduit on outside of the wall from the breaker box to the HPWC. Mounting was relatively simple, only a few bolts into a stud. When we moved and had to remove the HPWC, it required an electrician to disconnect the HPWC wiring from the breaker box, removing the conduit & HPWC from the wall, and patching where the mounts had holes in the sheet rock.

For the temporary condo, the 14-50 outlet was installed when we moved into the condo, and was located directly next to the breaker box, so it was easy for the electrician to run the wiring and install the outlet. And when we left, there wasn't anything for us to uninstall.

For our new house, we had the house built with a 100A line on one side of the garage and a 50A line on the other. With the conduit inside the wall, installation of the HPWC was needed to cut a hole in the sheet rock to connect the conduit to the HPWC. When the Gen 2 HPWC was installed to replace it, the mounting is different between Gen 1 & Gen 2 HPWCs, which ended up with the new HPWC not completely lining up with the existing hole in the sheet rock (it took Tesla technicians about 2 hours to do the Gen 1 uninstall and Gen 2 install).

And, if we uninstall the HPWC in the future, we'll need an electrician plus sheet rock repairs to cover over the hole behind the HPWC.

If we decide to install the second HPWC, looks like we'll end up running the wiring inside the wall from the existing 14-50 outlet - and then have to plan to do sheet rock repair on that wall if we ever uninstall that HPWC.

 

[Rocky_H]

I'll just highlight two things:
1) @iluvmacs already mentioned that it needs a Neutral wire available.

2) Wire size. 14-50 outlets are commonly installed with 8 or 6 gauge wire, so they make the lugs only so big that the wires go into. I just looked at the specifications for the Hubbell outlet that many people use, and 6 gauge is the largest wire that the terminals are made to accept. So if your wall connector is already using that size of wire, like with a 50 or 60A breaker, sure, it's an easy swap. But if you have a 100A circuit with huge wire for your wall connector, then it's going to be more complicated with extra adapter fittings to connect your huge 2 gauge or 3 gauge wire down to 6 gauge wire so it can fit into the terminals of the 14-50 outlet.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Worth noting that this will void the UL listing mark on the HPWC.

UL doesn’t extend past the wire lugs.

Put anything on there that is safe, meets code in your area, and will pass a safely inspection form a government representative.

That includes a NEMA 14-50, of that’s what you want. You can find UL listed 14-50 pigtails at Home Depot.

 

[jboy210]

BTW, my reason for asking all these questions is because this power will be buried in the ceiling of the garage and be largely inaccessible without a lot of work. Here are some images of the current state.

1st image is overview. Post on left edge is where HPWC will be mounted. Electrical Panel is on right. All wires will be up in the garage ceiling running through joists. Ceiling sheetrock will be repaired and ceiling smoothed and painted. My office is on second floor.

Here is detail on post that will hold HPWC. They added 2X4s to create a cavity for wires and will add additional blocking onto which the HPWC will be mounted. The post will be re-wrapped in sheetrock so no wires will be exposed.

 

[brkaus]

Quite a job. Going to be nice!

I was asking why you were considering 40a breaker?

 

[Rocky_H]

@jboy210 Ah, cool looking setup. But there's still the bigger question about the wire size. I still haven't seen you mention what circuit rating and wire size you are planning to use for the original wall connector installation.

 

[jboy210]

Quite a job. Going to be nice!

I was asking why you were considering 40a breaker?

I want 50 amp. So that is the 1st target.

But we are in phase 3 of 5 to 6 phase remodel. (And living in the house through it). My concern was understand the options if some of the other remodeling eat up too much power. In one phase we are putting in a few rows of LED lights (12 total lights), so I assume that will not use too much power. But in the backyard they are adding an outdoor TV, fans, and outdoor heaters (gas).

 

[jboy210]

@jboy210 Ah, cool looking setup. But there's still the bigger question about the wire size. I still haven't seen you mention what circuit rating and wire size you are planning to use for the original wall connector installation.

We are planning for 50 Amps on the HPWC, so I assume that is the same gauge wire required for a NEMA 14-50. Is that correct?

I think 50 Amps should be fine for us because we both work from home, so we rarely drive more than 100 miles in a day. Typical is less than 50. So even with the X, if my wife got a smaller, higher performance EV sedan like a 3 P or BMW/Mercedes equivalent, we should be OK.