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How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

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Are you saying it will even let it sleep 3+ hours?? I know the car will sleep some with StatsApp, but from my understanding the car gets "pinged" about every hour which I would think wakes the car up.

Correct.

If you are able to close the app (I've an iPhone so I swipe up to close out of the app) then within an hour or so, the car will go to sleep. The car will remain asleep until I open the app (or the Tesla App) or approach the car and open one of the doors.

I didn't drive for one day and my car slept for 24+ hours as per TeslaFi.
 
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Here is the thing: no one knows exactly how much extra the battery life is if you do 5% to 60% rather than 25% to 80%.

Will the battery last 10% more if you go 5 -> 60 rather than 25 -> 80? Does anyone really know?

All I know is that the battery is rated to last 500K miles and still retain 70% of its capacity. Meaning, at 800K kms, you still have 70% of your capacity (350 kms for LR AWD version). This assumes normal operation (doing 90% to 50% discharge).

Do you really plan on keeping your car for 500K miles?

What does it matter if you're replacing the car within 4 to 8 years like most folks who purchase new cars do?

more of an american thing, in europe people can keep cars for 15 years easily.

We do know from cell studies how lithium ion batteries behave and how they degrade. Tesla may have some tricks on reducing degradation but it will probably still follow the general trend.
And in all research done on lithium ions they perform better with shallower cycles done on the lower end of the SOC.
 
My Tesla was home delivered with ZERO SOC, at the end of the day in Winter. The driver said he loaded it that way in the morning. Of course, since it was winter, the driver couldn't drive down my dirt road, so we met at a rest stop to exchange cars. The rest stop the driver chose had no chargers! We had to reload the Tesla and take it to a rest stop with a supercharger. The car was so dead, I actually pushed it to get it back onto the carrier.
View attachment 596144
Good thing is my battery seems to have survived no worse for the wear.

Starting to charge from Zero.
View attachment 596143

I would have refused delivery of this car, not acceptable - and not acceptable for them to charge it and redeliver it - who knows how long the battery has been sitting at 0%.

That said, like I wrote above, I'm not sure if leaving the car sit at 0% (so 4.5% SOC) does any harm at all. I am convinced as long as it is not too hot outside and the car cant run the coolant pump due to being <5% that it has no effect at all.

I wonder if the coolant pumps actually get run down to 0%. not sure.
 
I would have refused delivery of this car, not acceptable - and not acceptable for them to charge it and redeliver it - who knows how long the battery has been sitting at 0%.

That said, like I wrote above, I'm not sure if leaving the car sit at 0% (so 4.5% SOC) does any harm at all. I am convinced as long as it is not too hot outside and the car cant run the coolant pump due to being <5% that it has no effect at all.

I wonder if the coolant pumps actually get run down to 0%. not sure.
I had the home delivery driver note the issue. After waiting 4 months for the car, it was hard to turn down!

We know that at zero, the car still had the ability to move, enough so that the driver loaded it on my car carrier, so not exactly zero. Annoying that they loaded it like that. And, then spent a whole day on the car carrier, since my delivery was the last of the day. It had enough power to roll off the carrier, but then when he put it back on to take it to another rest stop to charge it, it stopped on the loading ramp; that's when I had to push it to get it back onto the carrier. So, now it was really on vapors. Thankfully, we got it charging in about 20mins at a nearby supercharger.

After an hour of charging, the only oddity was that the GPS was messed up when I drove it home. It thought I was over 100 miles west of my actual location. Obviously the internal GPS clock needed updating.

Being December, and quite cold, cooling was not an issue. The car did need some time on the supercharger before it would start charging.

I know I'm fortunate that the battery has been great so far, no discernible BMS drift or range deg issues. Stats shows it has been rock solid.
File Oct 06, 11 31 37 PM.png
 
I would have refused delivery of this car, not acceptable - and not acceptable for them to charge it and redeliver it - who knows how long the battery has been sitting at 0%.

That said, like I wrote above, I'm not sure if leaving the car sit at 0% (so 4.5% SOC) does any harm at all. I am convinced as long as it is not too hot outside and the car cant run the coolant pump due to being <5% that it has no effect at all.

I wonder if the coolant pumps actually get run down to 0%. not sure.
You're overworrying - if the car powers on and moves, the battery is still well above 0%. Tesla has stated that even if you completely drain the HV pack, there's no issue with letting the car sit for months. This used to be an issue with the original Roadster, but it had a lot more quiescent power draw in the pack even when things were shut down. There's no issue with storing the Model 3 pack for a while at very low SOC, the BMS will protect the pack. I wouldn't store it for a year at 0%, but that's mainly because I'd be worried about the pack draining below thresholds and then requiring manual intervention to charge back up.

Even if the 12V dies - if you can jump the 12V back up and get the HV pack back online and charging, you are good.
 
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You're overworrying - if the car powers on and moves, the battery is still well above 0%. Tesla has stated that even if you completely drain the HV pack, there's no issue with letting the car sit for months. This used to be an issue with the original Roadster, but it had a lot more quiescent power draw in the pack even when things were shut down. There's no issue with storing the Model 3 pack for a while at very low SOC, the BMS will protect the pack. I wouldn't store it for a year at 0%, but that's mainly because I'd be worried about the pack draining below thresholds and then requiring manual intervention to charge back up.

Even if the 12V dies - if you can jump the 12V back up and get the HV pack back online and charging, you are good.

noone is worried here. we wre just having a discussion. tesla usually advises things which will keep the battery within warranty range for 8 years. thats their only concern and usually not reliable.
 
I’ve had my p3d+ for just over 2 yrs 26k miles. The end of July I happened to start doing this method before the OP started this thread. I stopped charging everyday and only charged when it was 20-30%....letting the car sit/sleep at those low SOC for at least 2-3hrs before charging back up to 90% and letting it sit at 90% for a few hrs. I don’t use sentry mode...so it’s always off. I went from plugging in daily to only charging every 4-6 days. My 90% went from 248 to now 260.

Takeaways from my experience:
1) I’ve done 15 deep charging cycles since I started end of July and only got to 260 with my last two charges....so it can take some time depending on how many miles you drive.
2) caused some range anxiety that I never had before. I’m the never let my gas tank get below 1/4 kind of guy. With having a varying work/kids/family schedule there’s been times I would have to calculate and plan for how far I might be driving to make sure I had enough SOC to get through my day/trip.
3) confirmed my lack of desire to drive at low SOCs. One of the main reasons I bought the car was for the acceleration. There’s a noticeable drop in power at lower SOC (as seen by MPP’s dyno testing) and is one of the reasons I prefer plugging in everyday. Last night I ran into a modified e92 m3 on the highway and had some friendly pulls. With only 50% SOC it left me wondering how it would have compared if I had a higher SOC.

Not sure how much longer I can keep this up...but at this point I have to keep going until the range levels off lol.
Here’s a screen shot from STATS showing calculated 100%

View attachment 595808

just wanted to add a bit more info to my previous post. Here’s a screen shot of SMT from early July and one from yesterday after doing balance charges since end of July. Of note, SMT is reporting CAC now...not sure when that happened or if I just never realized it before. My min CAC is 200.7 and max is 202.9 Are those values normal? Difference in packs normal or indicates a bad pack?

D3123DFE-8FC8-473D-8AF7-4D2FC1416A67.jpeg


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Like many others, I have been concerned with loss of 100% indicated battery range on one of my Model 3s. My P3D (build date 9/13/2018, delivery date 10/8/2018) had gotten down to 270.3 miles at 100% charge on January 20, 2020, at about 30,700 miles, which is a loss of 40.8 miles since the car was new.

I posted about going to the service center to talk with them about battery degradation, which I did on March 9, 2020. It was a great service appointment and the techs at the Houston Westchase service center paid attention to my concerns and promised to follow up with a call from the lead virtual tech team technician. I detailed this service visit in the following post:

Reduced Range - Tesla Issued a Service Bulletin for possible fix

While that service visit was great, the real meat of addressing the problem came when I spoke to the virtual tech team lead. He told me some great things about the Model 3 battery and BMS. With the knowledge of what he told me, I formulated a plan to address it myself.

So here is the deal on the Model 3 battery and why many of us might be seeing this capacity degradation.

The BMS system is not only responsible for charging and monitoring of the battery, but computing the estimated range. The way it does this is to correlate the battery's terminal voltage (and the terminal voltage of each group of parallel cells) to the capacity. The BMS tries to constantly refine and calibrate that relationship between terminal voltage and capacity to display the remaining miles.

For the BMS to execute a calibration computation, it needs data. The primary data it needs to to this is what is called the Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) of the battery and each parallel group of cells. The BMS takes these OCV readings whenever it can, and when it has enough of them, it runs a calibration computation. This lets the BMS now estimate capacity vs the battery voltage. If the BMS goes for a long time without running calibration computations, then the BMS's estimate of the battery's capacity can drift away from the battery's actual capacity. The BMS is conservative in its estimates so that people will not run out of battery before the indicator reads 0 miles, so the drift is almost always in the direction of estimated capacity < actual capacity.

So, when does the BMS take OCV readings? To take a set of OCV readings, the main HV contactor must be open, and the voltages inside the pack for every group of parallel cells must stabilize. How long does that take? Well, interestingly enough, the Model 3 takes a lot longer for the voltages to stabilize than the Model S or X. The reason is because of the battery construction. All Tesla batteries have a resistor in parallel with every parallel group of cells. The purpose of these resistors is for pack balancing. When charging to 100%, these resistors allow the low cells in the parallel group to charge more than the high cells in the group, bringing all the cells closer together in terms of their state of charge. However, the drawback to these resistors is that they are the primary cause of vampire drain.

Because Tesla wanted the Model 3 battery to be the most efficient it could be, Tesla decided to decrease the vampire drain as much as possible. One step they took to accomplish this was to increase the value of all of these resistors so that the vampire drain is minimized. The resistors in the Model 3 packs are apparently around 10x the value of the ones in the Model S/X packs. So what does this do to the BMS? Well, it makes the BMS wait a lot longer to take OCV readings, because the voltages take 10x longer to stabilize. Apparently, the voltages can stabilize enough to take OCV readings in the S/X packs within 15-20 minutes, but the Model 3 can take 3+ hours.

This means that the S/X BMS can run the calibration computations a lot easier and lot more often than the Model 3. 15-20 minutes with the contactor open is enough to get a set of OCV readings. This can happen while you're out shopping or at work, allowing the BMS to get OCV readings while the battery is at various states of charge, both high and low. This is great data for the BMS, and lets it run a good calibration fairly often.

On the Model 3, this doesn't happen. With frequent small trips, no OCV readings ever get taken because the voltage doesn't stabilize before you drive the car again. Also, many of us continuously run Sentry mode whenever we're not at home, and Sentry mode keeps the contactor engaged, thus no OCV readings can be taken no matter how long you wait. For many Model 3's, the only time OCV readings get taken is at home after a battery charge is completed, as that is the only time the car gets to open the contactor and sleep. Finally, 3 hours later, OCV readings get taken.

But that means that the OCV readings are ALWAYS at your battery charge level. If you always charge to 80%, then the only data the BMS is repeatedly collecting is 80% OCV readings. This isn't enough data to make the calibration computation accurate. So even though the readings are getting taken, and the calibration computation is being periodically run, the accuracy of the BMS never improves, and the estimated capacity vs. actual capacity continues to drift apart.

So, knowing all of this, here's what I did:

1. I made it a habit to make sure that the BMS got to take OCV readings whenever possible. I turned off Sentry mode at work so that OCV readings could be taken there. I made sure that TeslaFi was set to allow the car to sleep, because if it isn't asleep, OCV readings can't get taken.

2. I quit charging every day. Round-trip to work and back for me is about 20% of the battery's capacity, and I used to normally charge to 90%. I changed my standard charge to 80%, and then I began charging the car at night only every 3 days. So day 1 gets OCV readings at 80% (after the charge is complete), day 2 at about 60% (after 1 work trip), and day 3 at about 40% (2 work trips). I arrive back home from work with about 20% charge on that last day, and if the next day isn't Saturday, then I charge. If the next day is Saturday (I normally don't go anywhere far on Saturday), then I delay the charge for a 4th day, allowing the BMS to get OCV readings at 20%. So now my BMS is getting data from various states of charge throughout the range of the battery.

3. I periodically (once a month or so) charge to 95%, then let the car sleep for 6 hours, getting OCV readings at 95%. Don't do this at 100%, as it's not good for the battery to sit with 100% charge.

4. If I'm going to take a long drive i.e. road trip, then I charge to 100% to balance the battery, then drive. I also try to time it so that I get back home with around 10% charge, and if I can do that, then I don't charge at that time. Instead, let the car sleep 6 hours so it gets OCV readings at 10%.

These steps allowed the BMS to get many OCV readings that span the entire state of charge of the battery. This gets it good data to run an accurate calibration computation.

So what's the results?

20200827Battery100PctRange.png


On 1/20/2020 at 30,700 miles, I was down to 270 miles full range, which is 40.8 miles lost (15.1 %). The first good, accurate recalibration occurred 4/16/2020 at 35,600 miles and brought the full range up to 286 miles. Then another one occurred on 8/23/2020 at 41,400 miles and brought the range up to 290 miles, now only a 20 mile loss (6.9 %).

Note that to get just two accurate calibration computations by the BMS took 7 months and 11,000 miles.

So, to summarize:

1. This issue is primarily an indication/estimation problem, not real battery capacity loss.
2. Constant Sentry mode use contributes to this problem, because the car never sleeps, so no OCV readings get taken.
3. Long voltage stabilization times in the Model 3 prevent OCV readings from getting taken frequently, contributing to BMS estimation drift.
4. Constantly charging every day means that those OCV readings that do get taken are always at the same charge level, which makes the BMS calibration inaccurate.
5. Multiple accurate calibration cycles may need to happen before the BMS accuracy improves.
6. It takes a long time (a lot of OCV readings) to cause the BMS to run a calibration computation, and therefore the procedure can take months.

I would love if someone else can perform this procedure and confirm that it works for you, especially if your Model 3 is one that has a lot of apparent degradation. It will take months, but I think we can prove that this procedure will work.


Hello,

I have a question about the BMS from my Model S85 battery. I charged the battery to 100% but after it reached it it stops charging and dropping. After fully charged I drove it down to 2% with 388km’s and charging it to 95%. Now It stops after 95% reaching the 95% limit, the state of charge is dropping in 6 hours after too 92%. Why can’t hold the BMS the state of charge steady on 95%?
 
Hello,

I have a question about the BMS from my Model S85 battery. I charged the battery to 100% but after it reached it it stops charging and dropping. After fully charged I drove it down to 2% with 388km’s and charging it to 95%. Now It stops after 95% reaching the 95% limit, the state of charge is dropping in 6 hours after too 92%. Why can’t hold the BMS the state of charge steady on 95%?

how old is your S? Such significant voltage sag means you either has a very miscalibrated BMS or cells which are in very poor condition (i.e. cant hold a chare).

I say do a 100 to 1-3% discharge a couple of times. Particularly if the cells are bad the car will hopefully leave you stranded below 10% and you get a new battery.
 
how old is your S? Such significant voltage sag means you either has a very miscalibrated BMS or cells which are in very poor condition (i.e. cant hold a chare).

I say do a 100 to 1-3% discharge a couple of times. Particularly if the cells are bad the car will hopefully leave you stranded below 10% and you get a new battery.


Maybe it’s because I use the TWCManager and didn’t setup it right.
 
97% —> 1% 394 km’s @ 163wh/km
Total Consumption 64,8kWh

So thats 67.5kwh for a full charge with a fresh S85 battery being 77.5kwh though im not sure if that includes the 4.5% buffer.
So around 13% degradation if there is no buffer and 8.8% degradation if the S has a 4.5% buffer sub 0. I seem to recall that for some ModelS the buffer was removed and 0 means 0 but owners noticed a range increase.

So depends on your km and amount of supercharging I'd say.

EDIT:
Model S 85 2015

Nominal Full Pack 72.7kWh
Usable Full 68.7kWh

Full Range 453Km
Full Typical Range 363Km

total odo 170K km


Given that your car has 170k km on the odo this looks quite good. I think some people might have slightly better values as they dont supercharge much.

Your 0 to 100% of 68.7 is reasonably close to the 67.5kwh I predicted - the 1.2kwh gets explained just by heat losses and rounding errors I'd say. Full pack includes your buffer and possibly the brick protection too given that 6.5% is a big buffer, maybe on the S it's bigger than the 3.

So given that the pack is a 77.5kwh pack when new and you have 72.7kwh I'd say you have 6.1% degradation which is REALLY good actually.

I would disable your third party software and if its still an issue then contact telsa and say your car cant hold a charge. might still be an issue with the cells though your range test is reassuring.
 
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I've had essentially the same issue as OP, but a little worse. Also had an almost identical discussion w/ a Tesla employee and followed his advice and it did make a big difference. I'm still well below average for my odometer reading, but I'm not dead last anymore. As you can see from the chart below, my Performance Model 3 has always been slightly worse than average, but a little after 20K miles, my range really started tanking...fast. I panicked and blew up Tesla and asked for more info about getting a new battery under the battery warranty. My normal commute uses 5% battery each way and I was charging to 90%, so my normal SOC range was only 90% to 80%. Right at that bottom trough there, I started following Tesla's (unofficial) advice and only charging when my car gets down to 20%. It took a LONG time to readjust, but seems to be fairly steady at this point at a value worse than average, which is where its been in the past. The only thing my Tesla employee told me that I didn't see in the OP was that the voltage flattens out around 70% and 30%, so he said that was not a very good SOC to leave your car sitting at if your goal is to improve your stated range.

charge.png


I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so maybe someone else touched on this, but I wanted to mention that I think its fairly important to try to keep the reported range as high as possible. I realize the increase seen on this chart is artificial. I did not magically gain range...my car just has a better handle on my real range. However, at some point I may want to sell my car. A potential buyer will, if they're smart, look at see what the car reports as its range and calculate what it would be at 100% to make sure the battery isn't a dud. Sure you can try to explain to them that you plugged your car in every day like Tesla said and that this is a known issue, but I'm sure they'd prefer to buy a car that says it has 285 miles full vs one that has 272. Plus...this isn't that likely, but say there's a power surge. I only charge about once per week now, so my car is only plugged in maybe 1/14th of the time. That's less chance that a power surge is going to cause any issues (rare, but it happens).
 
My normal commute uses 5% battery each way and I was charging to 90%, so my normal SOC range was only 90% to 80%. Right at that bottom trough there, I started following Tesla's (unofficial) advice and only charging when my car gets down to 20%. It took a LONG time to readjust, but seems to be fairly steady at this point at a value worse than average, which is where its been in the past. The only thing my Tesla employee told me that I didn't see in the OP was that the voltage flattens out around 70% and 30%, so he said that was not a very good SOC to leave your car sitting at if your goal is to improve your stated range.
So are you cycling from 90-20% now?
 
The only thing my Tesla employee told me that I didn't see in the OP was that the voltage flattens out around 70% and 30%, so he said that was not a very good SOC to leave your car sitting at if your goal is to improve your stated range.

Sorry for my lack of understanding. But can you explain what you mean by the voltage flatting out between 70 - 30 %? And how that relates to why its not a very good soc to leave the car if ones goal is to improve staged range?
 
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Sorry for my lack of understanding. But can you explain what you mean by the voltage flatting out between 70 - 30 %? And how that relates to why its not a very good soc to leave the car if ones goal is to improve staged range?

If you look at state of charge vs. cell voltage for Lithium ion batteries, the cell voltage doesn't move very much until you get to either very low states of charge, or very high states of charge.

Here's an example curve from powerstream, you can see on their particular battery, voltage is close to flat between around 25% and 80%.
charge.jpg
 
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For anyone interested here are my voltages from 90-20% as reported by SMT. I was curious to see how it correlated to the v/percent gauge I have for my esk8 :p. It’s not as flat as the graph @earthwormjim posted.

90% 4.11
80% 4.01
70% 3.97
60% 3.89
50% 3.81
40% 3.67
30% 3.55
20% 3.52

Sorry for my lack of understanding. But can you explain what you mean by the voltage flatting out between 70 - 30 %? And how that relates to why its not a very good soc to leave the car if ones goal is to improve staged range?

if you look at the voltages from 80-50%. The difference is only 0.2 With such small variability...the theory is it’s difficult for the bms to get an accurate calculation on capacity....if it doesn’t see the ends of SOC. But that’s also the reason why those voltage/SOC ranges are best for cell health....because the battery is less stressed. So it goes back to charging habits for best bms accuracy vs cell health/longevity. Does it really make a difference? If so how much? What’s best? IMO it’s personal choice. I say do whatever floats your boat and makes you enjoy the car the most. Just avoid staying above 90% for extended periods of times. I’m going back to daily 90% once my rated miles levels off...after all these calibration charges I’ve been doing for the past 2.5 months. Can’t stand not having all the power on tap.

pics of my boards for anyone else into esk8’s:D

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64064457-F84F-4E23-B253-92FA1AC5E685.jpeg
 
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I have been following this thread and decided a couple of months ago to try this out as i have been seeing some decline in degradation (~3%). I have a M3 LR, Dec 2018. Over the past 2.5 months I have followed the "protocol" and instead of noticing any increase, I have been noticing a more rapid decline in the battery's estimated range as can be seen from the TeslaFi battery degradation report. Currently if i were to charge to 100%, it would be 290 out of 310 rated miles, a 6.5% battery degradation. Is there something I am doing wrong or does it get worse before the BMS resets?

Any help and insight is greatly appreciated
 

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