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How is Tesla making money on the Model 3?

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I've wondered about this too, and I am increasingly optimistic. I'll need help correcting my guesses of part costs, but here goes:

Costs:
Battery: Under $10,000
Motor: ?

Savings:
iCE: $2000 - $4000 ?
Dealership: $3000
Complex transmission: $2000
Exhaust/Emissions treatment: $500 - $1000
Fuel system: $500
Reduction in complexity: no idea

It's pretty easy to come up with a number for the increased cost using an EV powertrain.
There are several compliance EVs by different companies operating in a competitive market. These are cars originally sold with a complete ICE drivetrain, but now have an BEV version.

It's about $12k more for a EV than an ICE in 2016. But these have a small battery, small controllers, small chargers, small motors.

Many folk do not consider what the price of the controller, high output AC motor, reduction box, and charger are. Currently (har), they cost more than an ICE transaxle does.
 
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First off, I'd expect the base Model 3 to have a smaller battery. .

Hmm, I would think that it would be cheaper for production purposed if all of the vehicles have the same battery and motor. The M3 has the same wheel base as the M6 so why not have the same battery.

It has been noted that the difference between the newer models has been programming. In other words the difference between the Pxxx version as opposed to the xxx version is programming. Same Battery - Same Motor.

Production would be MUCH simpler.
 
There are several compliance EVs by different companies operating in a competitive market. These are cars originally sold with a complete ICE drivetrain, but now have an BEV version.
These small volume compliance cars are sold for however much the market will pay with little to no relation to cost or profit. I do not think you can use their price to estimate production costs.
 
First off, I'd expect the base Model 3 to have a smaller battery. Remember that the Model 3 is smaller, so it should have better mileage per kWh. The original Model S had a 208 mile range with a 60kWh battery. I imagine a vehicle 30% smaller would get a bit more than 215 miles with the same size battery. As such, I'm expecting the base Model 3 to have a 40-50 kWh battery
I think everyone can agree that 60kWh is probably the largest size base model could have. Vehicle maybe 20% or 30% (as you say) smaller but it may not save much on weight due to steel being used. Also, no one knows at this point if frontal area will be 20-30% smaller.

Chevy is getting batteries at $130/kWh for the Bolt. I believe the Gigafactory's hopes are that it can reduce the cost of batteries for Tesla to $100/kWh. This would reduce the battery cost by a few thousand in your calculations, and combined with my belief of a smaller battery, would be cheaper than your best case scenario by less than half ($4000 for a 40kWh battery.)
I've read articles qoting as low as $140, have not seen $130... In any case primary reason for Bolt's cheap batteries is that LG is supplying many other components for the car. Basically, $140/kWh price is only this low because it's being subsidized by other components. Also battery chemistry and packaging is so different that it's hard to say that if LG Chem can lower the price than Tesla can do too. Bottom line, I do not think that Tesla can lower the cost of batteries this substantially in the first few years.
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Then of course, Honda, Chevy, etc. are stuck with a middle man which has to take a cut as well. Tesla gets to save this cost and roll it in to their margins.

Traditional dealers have to stock their lots with vehicles. Every day the vehicle sits on the lot is money lost, whether it is interest paid on a loan or opportunity cost. Now, I realize this cost is incurred by the Dealer and not the Manufacturer, but regardless it is an additional cost that Tesla gets to avoid compared to traditional vehicle sales because (at least for the foreseeable future) Tesla vehicles are sold before they even make it to the production line.

Agreed.
 
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Oh No!!! only 50K cars a year? Did you see how many pre-orders there were? It would take me 5 years to get my car.

At peak production the Fremont NUMMI plant produced 500,000 cars per year. Tesla is only using small portion of the capacity.

LOL Non-factual speculation is the name of the game. That's what makes it fun. With a company like ST - (Secret Tesla). The only thing you can do is speculate.

All I was asking for is speculation. I'm interested in seeing what "other people think" - not what other people know.

What else are we going to do for the next 18 months? Wait on facts from TESLA? LOL. This is fun.

The thread is called "How is Tesla making money on the 3?" Most of the responses have been well thought out and rational. Some have ignored facts, such assuming a 50k per year factory limitation.

That is a real problem that I think has been reinforced by social media and ubiquitous "news" outlets... some people seem to think facts are optional, and that you can disregard them because you have a right to have an opinion contrary to known facts. I don't think factless assertions are fun, just annoying. LOL
 
I think that was the old EPA rating system.

In the current EPA system, a Model 'S' uses 330 - 380 Wh/mile including charging, so 280 - 323 Wh on the road. Presuming a 4 kwh anti-brick reserve, the on-road range today of a 60 kWh Model S would be estimated at 173 - 200 miles.
Point of clarification. The EPA standards which changed in 2008, before the Model S was built?
 
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I believe it will be very! difficult to make a GAAP profit with the Model 3. Last year they lost 800 million with the Model S. They will have to go from making massive losses with a high margin luxury car to making profits with a low margin mass market car.

I believe Tesla will have to increase the price, i.e. catapulting the Model 3 out of the mass market price range, if they want to avoid making losses.

I understand that economies of scale will help some. But I am not sure massive reductions in battery prices, i.e. 50 percent, are likely. If anything cost reductions in batteries will be what the industry has achieved on average over the last 5 years.

Looking at the income statement

Tesla Motors Inc.

Revenue, currently 4.05 billion, minus costs of goods sold, 3.12 billion, will show a much smaller margin. Yes this figure might still be larger than todays one despite the smaller margin, if they sell enough cars. Cutting the purchasing price by half or more per car will make GAAP profits difficult to say the least, even if fixed costs as a percentage of revenue go much lower.

Depreciation and amortization expense, will likely increase with higher investments needed for production expansion. Currently standing 422 million.

R and D, will not increase much with increased production. Currently standing at 776 million

Other SG and E expense will increase with more superchargers and service centers needed.

At the end of the day a lot of things need to fall into place if you want to go from making a 800 million loss to profits while producing cars with a smaller margin.

One thing is for certain though. They need another significant financing round, via the selling of equity, to finance their expansion plans and the development of model 3.

Absolutely Fantastic post.
 
I'm thinking tesla is going to profit more so from the sheer number of software upgrade "units" they sell than the cost of battery and scalability advances at first. They have software that's already developed and sells for $5000 a pop. That's going to add up quick if they sell half a million cars a year.
 
I'm thinking tesla is going to profit more so from the sheer number of software upgrade "units" they sell than the cost of battery and scalability advances at first. They have software that's already developed and sells for $5000 a pop. That's going to add up quick if they sell half a million cars a year.

What are those? I'm only aware of Autopilot, which is $2500.

But yeah, I think that the software sales are high margin and represent a revenue center that needs to be more widely recognized and understood.