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How is your insurance handling "autonomy"?

Daniel in SD

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2018
6,888
9,767
San Diego
You'll get nowhere trying to suss out any logic from his tweets. They are aspirational, not driven by any real data or breakthroughs.
It was in an interview with Lex Fridman. I don't understand how an MIT AI researcher could hear this and keep a straight face, maybe he's never used Autopilot...
April 2019
Lex Fridman:
"Do you see Tesla's full self-driving as still for a time to come requiring supervision of the human being. So, its capabilities are powerful enough to drive but nevertheless requires a human to still be supervising, just like a safety driver is in other fully autonomous vehicles?"
Elon Musk:
"I think it will require detecting hands on wheel for at least six months or something like that from here. Really it's a question of, from a regulatory standpoint, how much safer than a person does Autopilot need to be for it to be okay to not monitor the car."
 
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S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,629
6,399
Snohomish, WA
This is my biggest surprise if Tesla never goes for any kind of L3.

L3 simply has too much stacked against it

The lawyers don't like it because of the handoff issue is messy.

Consumer expectation will quickly outgrow the traffic assist L3 systems. Lots of times I'm in traffic that speeds up, and slows down constantly. So it would simply be really annoying as I'd be constantly binged to take over.

My hope is Tesla recognized L3 as pointless, and that's why they worked on FSD City Streets because they knew they'd have to handle at the very least an off ramp to parking.

Things I would find really useful in progression from making what we have more useful to making something people wouldn't live without.
  • Acknowledging radar is needed, and bringing it back along with passenger lumber. Just have an official "oops, sorry about that announcement".
  • Integrating Radar and Tesla Vision properly
  • Vastly improving customer reporting to fix map issues along with missed detections. Make some button a trigger button for reporting so at the end of the drive you can go through each trigger point to enter in what you're reporting
  • Semitrucks not bouncing around in the detection causing phantom braking or auto lane change failures
  • Autopilot that didn't re-center just because the lane got wider
  • Vastly reduced latency between the time of an event, and response of TACC/AP
  • Vastly improved NoA logic when it comes to lane changes where its way more traffic aware. Like sometimes you need to get over early and sometimes you don't.
  • Hands free L2
  • Autopark using vision
  • The Chime when its your turn to go from a stop sign. So that it acts as reinsurance for when you think its your time to go. The people in the Seattle area would love this to stop the whole "No, you go" thing that can last for a minute.
  • Limited functionality FSD Beta. Like no uncontrolled left turns across multiple lanes of traffic
  • Official wide scale testing of completely automated rest stop to rest stop L2 driving that acts as a study to see if L4 can be turned on in well mapped highly geofenced areas.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,791
18,891
NC
But even with that math- Some cars get totaled at 1000 miles. Tesla's model means you paid $10K for that.

Well, if you somehow don't have insurance I guess it means that.

For folks with full replacement value coverage it means their insurance would be paying for FSD on your new Tesla that replaced the totaled one.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
For folks with full replacement value coverage it means their insurance would be paying for FSD on your new Tesla that replaced the totaled one.
You think your insurance rates aren't impacted by this?
If your car is $15K more to replace because it has FSD, your insurance is going to charge you more. That money could have gone to the FSD sub.
Nothing is free. If Tesla gets to sell a new FSD sub when a Tesla is totaled, then consumers pay for that one way or another, not the insurance company. Insurance companies can't pay out money they never collected.

The attitude that the cost of things don't matter if insurance pays for them is how we end up with high insurance rates.
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
12,791
18,891
NC
You think your insurance rates aren't impacted by this?

You're gonna hurt your back moving the goalposts like that....your original claim was you're out $10,000 (minus whatever value 1000 total miles of driving was worth to you I guess). Your claim is demonstrably false.


If your car is $15K more to replace because it has FSD, your insurance is going to charge you more

No...the OTHER guys insurance is gonna charge him more, because that's who I'd be filing with since any accident I've ever been involved in was someone elses fault.

Though even if it WAS mine, the amount of difference it'd make to my premium having FSD or not when filing would be less than the monthly subscription to it is likely to be. A LOT less.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
Some cars get totaled at 1000 miles. Tesla's model means you paid $10K for that.
your original claim was you're out $10,000
I said "you paid $10K for that" not "You are out $10k." As I say, that $10K is destroyed, and someone is going to pay for it. Financially, everyone in the world (except Tesla) will be better if a car with 1,000, 5,000, or 50,000 miles is totaled having paid $8.50 per hour for AP instead of $15,000 during purchase.

That money could have gone to the FSD sub.
Though even if it WAS mine, the amount of difference it'd make to my premium having FSD or not when filing would be less than the monthly subscription to it is likely to be. A LOT less.
Yep. Never said it would pay for the subscription, but could go to it.

No...the OTHER guys insurance is gonna charge him more, because that's who I'd be filing with since any accident I've ever been involved in was someone elses fault.
Since we're tossing insults and hyperbole, I'll say that you're remarkably bad at statistics, or understanding how industry wide insurance premiums work as the average car replacement cost goes up.

When you see all of this, there are lots of good reasons to prefer to pay $8.50 an hour, instead of $10,000 at the moment of vehicle purchase.
Like I said, there are good reasons in some cases to prefer per hour or per month vs a $10K+ one time purchase, not that there was only one correct answer.
 

daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,006
3,824
Kihei, HI
It would be an interesting research topic for someone much less lazy than I am: Is there a difference in the insurance premium (all else being equal: same company, same locality, same risk-level driver) for identical Teslas but one has paid for FSD and the other has not? And would an insurer pay replacement cost including FSD (if the totaled car had it) or just the hardware cost and call the FSD an uncovered add-on? Some insurance companies are notorious for weaseling out of paying what you thought you had covered?
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
...And does it matter if you bought it as part of the original purchase of the car, vs afterwards?
Afterwards, it looks a lot like any add-on, "aftermarket" item. These are almost always limited by your policy to a fairly low amount (~$1,500)
I mean, Ford sells carbon fiber wheels for Mustangs. They are about $15K. Just because they are made by the OEM doesn't mean they are covered if they weren't the original wheels that model came with.

The issue here is that the VIN/Model doesn't cover the existence of FSD or other software (performance boost). So it's going to be up to insurance companies to start asking once they realize this can change the replacement cost of a car. Given it can by 40%, and with more Teslas being sold, you know they will start doing this soon. FSD has only been $10k for about 6 months, so it's kind of new for the insurance companies to have good numbers on yet.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,820
5,752
I'm not sure anyone's insurance company is aware of you have FSD or not. I use Nationwide insurance - they haven't asked and I've not told them.
I don't think they care about specific options. FSD is just another option. I have State Farm and all they really cared about was which version I had (SR+ or other), plus I told them the price. When it come times for the claim I imagine they just look at your MVPA. The only complication as mentioned by others is if you buy options afterwards (like FSD or heated seats), you would have to buy extra aftermarket parts coverage (some people mentioned in other threads).
 

JHCCAZ

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Feb 2, 2021
341
568
Tucson
I don't think they care about specific options. FSD is just another option. I have State Farm and all they really cared about was which version I had (SR+ or other), plus I told them the price. When it come times for the claim I imagine they just look at your MVPA. The only complication as mentioned by others is if you buy options afterwards (like FSD or heated seats), you would have to buy extra aftermarket parts coverage (some people mentioned in other threads).
I have State Farm also. When paying a claim they're pretty good about finding the actual market price of a comparable vehicle. They don't just pay on book value but on comps, and this is a good thing considering the very high Tesla resale market, and also the general current used-car price bubble. I imagine it's probably costing insurers right now as the accident rate has come back up after a quieter 2020 on the roads. I think I did get some notices about Covid-driven price breaks last year.

I agree also that it'd be worth checking regarding the purchase of the expensive FSD as an add-on. Hopefully they can adjust the collision coverage for that as long as you tell them promptly after purchase.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
I don't think they care about specific options. FSD is just another option. I have State Farm and all they really cared about was which version I had (SR+ or other), plus I told them the price. When it come times for the claim I imagine they just look at your MVPA. The only complication as mentioned by others is if you buy options afterwards (like FSD or heated seats), you would have to buy extra aftermarket parts coverage (some people mentioned in other threads).
Insurance policies are just contracts. I'd love to see one that lays out the above situation. I've never once seen one call out the MVPA as the defining element. What if you bought the car used? Is it suddenly not aftermarket because the previous owner bought it after the first sale? You'd have no way to prove or disprove that unless you had the original MVPA, which you basically never do on a used car. The MVPA is irrelevant 2 years later when finding a replacement vehicle.

The contracts say they will make you whole after an incident. I'd like to see the threads that determined that "whole" includes AP if it was delivered that way, but not if you bought it in the app 5 minutes after you bought the car. My policy sure doesn't, in fact it specifically says it would be covered, as it was made by the manufacturer specifically for that auto model. If they asked me the price of the car, I'd be smart to buy "FSD" after the original sale:

“Custom parts or equipment” means equipment, devices, accessories, enhancements and changes, other than those offered by the manufacturer specifically for that auto model or installed by the auto dealership as part of the original sale of a new auto , which are permanently installed or attached, and alter the appearance or performance of the auto . It doesn’t include undercoating, scotch guarding, chip coating and similar add-on damage-prevention treatments.

But note the FOR YOUR AUTO MODEL line- Which means Performance wheels on an SR don't count, and is why the exact vehicle model is interesting to them.

I'm pretty sure that companies just haven't caught up to modern software options that can cost $15k. Just because this isn't an issue yet, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Once insurance companies start seeing that they are having to cover $15K software options, they are going to start asking about them, or excluding them.

And of course, some people think cars with "FSD" will perform better and be lower insurance risks. Yet another reason the industry will need to catch up.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
They don't just pay on book value but on comps, and this is a good thing considering the very high Tesla resale market, and also the general current used-car price bubble.
This is how all insurance works, so I'm not sure what you think is unique about State Farm.
The interesting thing here is that when it's your car and you're at fault, they can exclude certain things. In this case, they could have language saying that things added after purchase aren't covered, even if they are sold by the manufacturer.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
10,820
5,752
Insurance policies are just contracts. I'd love to see one that lays out the above situation. I've never once seen one call out the MVPA as the defining element. What if you bought the car used? Is it suddenly not aftermarket because the previous owner bought it after the first sale? You'd have no way to prove or disprove that unless you had the original MVPA, which you basically never do on a used car. The MVPA is irrelevant 2 years later when finding a replacement vehicle.
Of course they aren't going to say "MVPA" specifically, but when it comes to processing the claim they will be looking for a document that provides evidence of what your car came with, and for Teslas that document is the MVPA (having filled out or looked at multiple applications for EV subsidies in California, that's what those applications specifically ask for).
The contracts say they will make you whole after an incident. I'd like to see the threads that determined that "whole" includes AP if it was delivered that way, but not if you bought it in the app 5 minutes after you bought the car. My policy sure doesn't, in fact it specifically says it would be covered, as it was made by the manufacturer specifically for that auto model. If they asked me the price of the car, I'd be smart to buy "FSD" after the original sale:
Here's the specific post I read about previously where someone added extra coverage as a rider to cover for a FSD purchase aftermarket:
I have full self driving on my model 3. If I buy a new Tesla does FSD transfer
There are other threads that discuss this subject:
FSD covered by insurance when added after purchase?
But note the FOR YOUR AUTO MODEL line- Which means Performance wheels on an SR don't count, and is why the exact vehicle model is interesting to them.
State Farm's policy has no such exclusions. The asking for the model seems to be mainly used to get a number for premium calculations (likely extra granularity for risk, for example a Performance model may have more risk for a high speed accident than a SR+). When it comes time for a comprehensive claim, they'll still have to ask me for further documents/evidence to verify what equipment was actually on my car.
I'm pretty sure that companies just haven't caught up to modern software options that can cost $15k. Just because this isn't an issue yet, doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Once insurance companies start seeing that they are having to cover $15K software options, they are going to start asking about them, or excluding them.

And of course, some people think cars with "FSD" will perform better and be lower insurance risks. Yet another reason the industry will need to catch up.
I looked it up last time and State Farm does not have extra discounts for opting for modern safety features. Basically any vehicle after 1994 gets a "Vehicle Safety Discount" of varying amounts depending on the make/model's "repair records", which is updated yearly. They give don't you extra discount if you opt for packages that may give the NHTSA checkmarks (FCW, LDW, AEB), so I presume they probably aren't doing that either in the repair record (other than indirect effects).
Auto Insurance Discounts - State Farm®
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
State Farm's policy has no such exclusions.
What is State Farm's exact language on customizations? I've never seen a policy without it, but you seem to be saying they won't cover AP added after the original purchase, but this would need to be clearly indicated in a policy, otherwise they are not making you whole.

Do you believe you can go put $15K carbon fiber wheels on your Mustang and they will be covered since they are sold by Ford, just only included on a different one? Why not cover a $15K stereo install?
 

JHCCAZ

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Feb 2, 2021
341
568
Tucson
This is how all insurance works, so I'm not sure what you think is unique about State Farm....
And I'm not sure why you think I said it's unique, which I did not. What I said is that State Farm does it this way (in my experience with reasonable outcomes). Not because I'm especially promoting State Farm but because I'm familiar with SF and the post I replied to happened to mention them specifically.

Now, setting aside the incorrect representation of my comment, I'd first say that ordinary life experience includes people swapping stories about claim payment disputes or dissatisfaction. All insurers have dissatisfied customers but some have more than others. This of course goes way back, but today it's also very easy to search and immediately find articles that warn about the valuation process (example BTW not exempting SF). And it's easy to find surveys of customer satisfaction and other metrics supporting the idea that not all insurers are the same in this regard.

More to the forum/thread topic of Autonomy, I think it will be quite interesting to see how insurers handle the L2 AP/FSD features going forward - aside from legally-mandated policy. If their actuaries agree that FSD-optioned Teslas (and/or Super-Cruise-optioned Cadillacs etc.) demonstrate a significant reduction in claims costs, they'll want to encourage customers to add those options. If they see a neutral or negative claims rate and a higher valuation (settlement cost) to boot, then that will belie the claims that current AP & FSD features really do work to increase safety. Personally I want this to be true, but many owner reports are disturbing.
 

daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,006
3,824
Kihei, HI
How an insurance company handles claims depends greatly on the company and what coverage you have. I had State Farm for 45 years and was always very happy with them. (I very reluctantly switched insurance company because SF would not cover my new home two years ago.) Other companies will pay the smallest amount they can get away with. And I'm sure there are smart people here who can read and understand legal contracts, but I sure cannot. An insurer could easily argue that FSD is not really part of the car. And that could vary from one contract to the next. You could well end up having to hire a lawyer to argue that some line in the policy means it's covered, while the company argues that the language was written before FSD existed and was never intended to cover it. Or they could argue that FSD isn't really full autonomy as its name implies, and so is not covered. And the final decision is made by a judge who doesn't even know what FSD is. And the insurance company probably has better lawyers than you have.

It's not a foregone conclusion that if your car is totaled you'll recover the cost of FSD.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,200
2,725
Seattle, WA
I had State Farm for 45 years and was always very happy with them. (I very reluctantly switched insurance company because SF would not cover my new home two years ago.) Other companies will pay the smallest amount they can get away with. And I'm sure there are smart people here who can read and understand legal contracts, but I sure cannot. An insurer could easily argue that FSD is not really part of the car. And that could vary from one contract to the next.
We're way off subject here for sure, but I have a buddy that runs an auto body shop and he doesn't put State Farm in the top 10 most fair/easy to work with insurers. That sure matches my experience too of having to sue someone that hit me that had State Farm because they treated me so badly. There's such varied experiences. State Farm is pretty famous for forcing insureds to use non-OEM parts and even lost a $1B class action over it, and their response was to make their use of non-OEM parts more clear in the contract language, not stop doing it.

Not every company requires you to be a lawyer to understand their contract. Some use very simple English to tell you what they do and don't cover. My policy reads like this, which is pretty understandable, and clearly covers FSD no matter when it was bought:
“Custom parts or equipment” means equipment, devices, accessories, enhancements and changes, other than those offered by the manufacturer specifically for that auto model or installed by the auto dealership as part of the original sale of a new auto , which are permanently installed or attached, and alter the appearance or performance of the auto. It doesn’t include undercoating, scotch guarding, chip coating and similar add-on damage-prevention treatments.

What I find interesting is that nobody else seems to have their actual auto policy language handy. They just kind of go "yeah, State Farm will treat me well" or "it matters if it was on the MVPA" or "of course it's covered."
 

daniel

Well-Known Member
May 7, 2009
5,006
3,824
Kihei, HI
We're way off subject here for sure, but I have a buddy that runs an auto body shop and he doesn't put State Farm in the top 10 most fair/easy to work with insurers. That sure matches my experience too of having to sue someone that hit me that had State Farm because they treated me so badly. There's such varied experiences. State Farm is pretty famous for forcing insureds to use non-OEM parts and even lost a $1B class action over it, and their response was to make their use of non-OEM parts more clear in the contract language, not stop doing it.

Not every company requires you to be a lawyer to understand their contract. Some use very simple English to tell you what they do and don't cover. My policy reads like this, which is pretty understandable, and clearly covers FSD no matter when it was bought:


What I find interesting is that nobody else seems to have their actual auto policy language handy. They just kind of go "yeah, State Farm will treat me well" or "it matters if it was on the MVPA" or "of course it's covered."

I am honestly surprised by your experience with State Farm. When I had the occasional fender-bender they let me go to whatever body shop I wanted and I don't recall ever having to accept non-OEM parts. They did recommend three shops, but did not require that I choose one of them. I did use one of the recommended shops because I trusted my agent, and the work was excellent and I just paid the deductible to the shop and the shop billed SF for the rest. Apparently they are not uniform everywhere but my experience was always great. I note that you say your experience was when SF was the other party's insurer. My experience was always with SF as my insurer.

I've never had any kind of insurance policy that I could make sense of. In your example above, I have no idea how FSD would fit in. It does alter the performance of the car, but it is not permanently installed since it can be removed by flipping a switch or downloading a different firmware version. "Permanently installed" could be their loophole if they chose to exclude it. A good lawyer can argue either side of any case and win, unless the opposing lawyer is better.

IMO a trustworthy insurance company is more important than my interpretation of the contract. That's why I never shop for insurance based on price.

Getting back to your insurance wording above, with something as expensive as FSD I'd want a line item saying whether it's included in the replacement value or not. (That is, if I had FSD, which I won't until it's at least Level 3.) (I don't know if what I paid for EAP would be included in mine, but I don't think I have "replacement cost" coverage. I probably just have market value coverage.
 

MP3Mike

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2016
16,213
36,557
Oregon
I am honestly surprised by your experience with State Farm. When I had the occasional fender-bender they let me go to whatever body shop I wanted and I don't recall ever having to accept non-OEM parts. They did recommend three shops, but did not require that I choose one of them.
Same experience for me. In fact State Farm demanded that only OEM parts be used. And the last vehicle I had an issue with they ended up totaling only because OEM parts weren't available. (I took the cash and had the same body shop repair it with non-OEM parts.)
 

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