If that is case, then Tesla certainly wouldn't have a problem providing a 500k mile & 15 year warranty on the 4680 batteries, right? After all that's only a fraction of the above stated miles and age, and they would be able to use that confidence to sell a lot of cars. Battery cycle life can be tested in a lab. Age is more tricky, and "gazillion" is just a bit of hubris. I'd like to see some actual statements from the manufacturer regarding any changes in battery durability, and I haven't seen any.
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How long do EV main battery packs last before failure (not just manageable degradation)?
- Thread starter Nujec
- Start date
While I like everything I've seen from Monroe, I don't believe he knows much about batteries, therefore, I don't put much faith in anything he says about them.
The mechanical parts of automobile manufacturing and design are more in his wheelhouse.
I don't think anyone knows for sure, how well the 4680, 2170, or even 18650 batteries or their particular chemistries, design factors, etc, will last over time and mileage. Time is pretty much impossible to simulate and test over quickly unless one fully understands the time-related factors that apply. Few, not even Dr. Dahn, really know a lot about this.
LFPs are not the only batteries that can last a 100 years. Tesla just this morning published a paper on a nickel based low power battery that can last a 100 years and a million miles…
insideevs.com
Is there any chance that this chemistry is whats being used in 4680s. It would explain why tesla is pushing 4680 production so hard and planning to move everything over to 4680s in the coming years.
Tesla Research Partner Publishes Details About 100-Year Battery
Clearly, no one really needs an EV battery that lasts 100 years, but that won't stop Jeff Dahn and his team from being leaders in battery tech and innovation.
insideevs.com
Is there any chance that this chemistry is whats being used in 4680s. It would explain why tesla is pushing 4680 production so hard and planning to move everything over to 4680s in the coming years.
"The paper dives into the complex details surrounding a potential nickel-based battery chemistry that could last 100 years under the right conditions."LFPs are not the only batteries that can last a 100 years. Tesla just this morning published a paper on a nickel based low power battery that can last a 100 years and a million miles…
Tesla Research Partner Publishes Details About 100-Year Battery
Clearly, no one really needs an EV battery that lasts 100 years, but that won't stop Jeff Dahn and his team from being leaders in battery tech and innovation.
Is there any chance that this chemistry is whats being used in 4680s. It would explain why tesla is pushing 4680 production so hard and planning to move everything over to 4680s in the coming years.
Since this is a research concept, I'd say it's not related to the 4680 cells. We've heard about potential battery innovations over time, however a concept, or a small sample in a lab is very different than a battery capable of being mass produced in a cost effective manner. Everything about the 4680 appears to be an effort at cost reduction.
If we ever do get an EV battery that lasts decades, it would be a game changer. You could effectively just upgrade your vehicle periodically, just like an aircraft, instead of replacing it. We are still far away from being able to do that.
WinterDragoness
Member
As another data point, my 2014 Model S 60 got an error about maximum battery power reduced in Jan 2021 which I thought was related to cold weather. I reached my destination ~120 miles away, came back to the car an hour later, backed up out of the parking space, and the car stopped and refused to move (I forget the exact error). It was towed to Tesla service who said the battery pack needed to be replaced under warranty.
Now, just under 1.5 years later, the replacement battery pack is failing with a "Maximum battery charge level reduced" error. It was on my home charger all night and won't charge above 63 miles of range. My 8 year battery warranty should have lasted till Oct 2023 but Tesla tells me the battery warranty ended when I hit 120,000 miles and the car is now at 123,471 miles so I'm pretty upset. Doesn't the replacement battery have a warranty to last over 1.5 years? I'm waiting to hear back but also looking for alternative places to repair the battery rather than pay $23k for a new battery (may as well get a new car at that point). Maybe Gruber Motors in Phoenix but it would sure be nice to find somewhere in Southern California.
EDIT: This says the fix Gruber does doesn't last. Yet Tesla refurbishes packs, so why can't anyone else do the same? Or are Tesla refurb packs also doomed to fail in a year or two like mine has?
Now, just under 1.5 years later, the replacement battery pack is failing with a "Maximum battery charge level reduced" error. It was on my home charger all night and won't charge above 63 miles of range. My 8 year battery warranty should have lasted till Oct 2023 but Tesla tells me the battery warranty ended when I hit 120,000 miles and the car is now at 123,471 miles so I'm pretty upset. Doesn't the replacement battery have a warranty to last over 1.5 years? I'm waiting to hear back but also looking for alternative places to repair the battery rather than pay $23k for a new battery (may as well get a new car at that point). Maybe Gruber Motors in Phoenix but it would sure be nice to find somewhere in Southern California.
EDIT: This says the fix Gruber does doesn't last. Yet Tesla refurbishes packs, so why can't anyone else do the same? Or are Tesla refurb packs also doomed to fail in a year or two like mine has?
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henderrj
Active Member
Wk057.com. nobody better. (No, I don't work for them or get anything for referring people to them.)
As to your warranty extending with the replacement battery,. You didn't pay for it, why would you get more warranty than you originally had? It is a bummer that those 60s only had 120k mile warranty. But, it is what it is!
Tesla refurbished packs are different. They don't attempt to replace modules or butcher them by cutting cells fuses. They will refurbish 16 module packs to 14 module ones (for 60,70,75 customers), and the replacement 16 module pack you get is a pack that didn't have cell/module level issues to begin with (repaired BMS hardware, connections, etc).
We only do full pack replacements at net cost. If your core pack is worth $X to us? and your replacement $Y, you pay $Y-X+Labor
... usually $4-6k for an 85 replacement.
We only do full pack replacements at net cost. If your core pack is worth $X to us? and your replacement $Y, you pay $Y-X+Labor
... usually $4-6k for an 85 replacement.
WinterDragoness
Member
I'm not so upset at not having a longer warranty but I'm quite upset that the replacement pack they gave me only lasted 1.5 years almost like they're giving people something just good enough to run out the original warranty. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. They've quoted me $18k for another replacement with 4 year, 50k mile warranty (interesting how they've reduced their confidence from 60k miles to 50k miles, so it's more like a 2-3 year warranty for most people).
Gruber says they do sometimes replace individual battery cells and their fix comes with a warranty (they did not mention the terms) but they said so many cars are having failed batteries the wait list is currently 8 months.
Also, looks like wk057's battery repair site has moved to 057tech.com Currently waiting to hear back.
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henderrj
Active Member
Good luck my friend. Perhaps you can get your battery upgraded to a larger size, working with Jason and company.
WinterDragoness
Member
I asked Tesla if they could upgrade my battery instead of replace it with the same. I'd heard they stopped offering upgrades so I expected a "no", but to my great surprise, they sent me a $12k estimate (incl misc parts and labor - no mention of goodwill discount) to upgrade my battery to 75kWh. Kinda mad they didn't suggest that originally over the $18k 60kWh. It's also possible $18k was a mistake since that was conveyed by a rep via a message in the app instead of a PDF estimate with parts price breakdown.
I've also been talking to Matt at Hybrid ReVolt who was offering a similar upgrade price (more likely to 85kWh as those are apparently easier to find) but with an uncertain warranty (the price and warranty basically depend on which battery he finds aftermarket). He was really good about answering questions and I found mostly good stuff in researching the company, but I suspect it won't be possible to beat the $12k with 50k warranty from Tesla. 10kW larger battery for a similar price would be nice but I would probably prefer a few years peace of mind.
Still haven't managed to wrangle a quote from wk057 Technologies but I do know they don't offer a warranty and shipping the car there will be around $1200 + airfare for two ($109-$565 per person depending on date and stops) and 3 or more days to get there and the same driving it back home.
EDIT: wk057 just sent me a new link to upgrades.057tech.com where they do instant quotes. Still don't think it will beat Tesla's price but he did say they now offer warranties as an optional additional cost, discounted from their normal warranty prices. The site doesn't seem to estimate the warranty price but I did find it cool they offer a no-autopilot to autopilot 1 upgrade option and a couple other things. He also said the price assumes you're exchanging a working battery so with my broken one it would cost a bit above the estimate.
I've also been talking to Matt at Hybrid ReVolt who was offering a similar upgrade price (more likely to 85kWh as those are apparently easier to find) but with an uncertain warranty (the price and warranty basically depend on which battery he finds aftermarket). He was really good about answering questions and I found mostly good stuff in researching the company, but I suspect it won't be possible to beat the $12k with 50k warranty from Tesla. 10kW larger battery for a similar price would be nice but I would probably prefer a few years peace of mind.
Still haven't managed to wrangle a quote from wk057 Technologies but I do know they don't offer a warranty and shipping the car there will be around $1200 + airfare for two ($109-$565 per person depending on date and stops) and 3 or more days to get there and the same driving it back home.
EDIT: wk057 just sent me a new link to upgrades.057tech.com where they do instant quotes. Still don't think it will beat Tesla's price but he did say they now offer warranties as an optional additional cost, discounted from their normal warranty prices. The site doesn't seem to estimate the warranty price but I did find it cool they offer a no-autopilot to autopilot 1 upgrade option and a couple other things. He also said the price assumes you're exchanging a working battery so with my broken one it would cost a bit above the estimate.
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Punch in your VIN on the new site for an upgrade quote: Upgrade Your Tesla | 057 Technology
Keep in mind that this site assumes a working core battery pack, so the true cost will be a bit more if the car is dead (although not by much if coming from a 60 since these aren't worth much either way as a core).
We do offer our Battery Service Plan on all packs we sell, but as a discounted addon in order to keep overall costs as low as possible.
No. Tesla's warranty clearly states that any work done under warranty retains the original warranty expiration. i.e. If you are at 49,999 miles and they repair/replace something under the bumper-to-bumper warranty, the second you role over 50,000 that repair is no longer warrantied, just like the rest of the vehicle. (I think most manufacturers offer a minimum 90-day/1-year or 3k/12k miles type of warranty on all repairs, even warranty ones, but Tesla does not.)
Brando
Active Member
ZenRockGarden
Active Member
You don't make warranty durations based on how long the thing will actually last - you make it in order to give assurance to your chosen market. That market does not NEED a 500k mile warranty on the battery pack - the car itself will not last that long. Offering an absurdly long warranty would not sell any additional cars, so you don't do it, even if the packs are going to last 4 times longer than the car.
WinterDragoness
Member
My Model S 60 battery is now replaced with a 75kWh for $12,820.93. So it took exactly 3 weeks from when I approved the estimate to get the battery. They said it's a "2.0" pack but I have no idea what that means and I don't see any matches in an online search. My original battery was labeled 1028600-00-B which is already one version beyond the original A model.
My max range on the car was deteriorating about 1 mile a day and when it got low enough to barely make it to the service center safely if the car disabled regen braking, I drove it down there even though the new battery wasn't ready yet. Turns out Matt from Hybrid ReVolt was right that the car only disabled charging from a wall charger and didn't disable regen. I was still worried that charging the battery too fast or with too many miles could trigger some error to shut down the car, so I carefully kept the car from using much regen down our mountain and did firm braking when the speed got too high. I later realized I maybe could have disabled regen in the car settings, though I can't remember if that's an option. Despite my efforts, the car did gain 7 miles above the miles it would charge to at home. Once we got down the mountain I kept to surface streets, accelerated slowly, and didn't worry about the regen at stoplights.
I was pleasantly surprised Tesla said I could have a loaner vehicle once I was down there (but mad they never said I could have one earlier when I asked twice in the text chat) but they wouldn't have one till the next day. I ended up telling them I wouldn't be back down the mountain till the next week, and now my car is ready before I was going to head down again, so oh well.
What does make me mad is they said during their test drive there was a whining coming from the drive unit during their test drive and they "kindly" offered to give me an estimate on replacing it which no doubt would be many thousands of dollars. That whining has been there for at least four years and service never bothered to comment on it until it was out of warranty, even when I did two test drives with service techs for other issues plus ~10 other service visits including the previous battery replacement under warranty where they would have done the same test drive they did now. Luckily the sound is fairly quiet and doesn't bother me so I'm not going to replace the drive unit but waiting till it's out of warranty to let me know it's not normal is really sleazy.
My max range on the car was deteriorating about 1 mile a day and when it got low enough to barely make it to the service center safely if the car disabled regen braking, I drove it down there even though the new battery wasn't ready yet. Turns out Matt from Hybrid ReVolt was right that the car only disabled charging from a wall charger and didn't disable regen. I was still worried that charging the battery too fast or with too many miles could trigger some error to shut down the car, so I carefully kept the car from using much regen down our mountain and did firm braking when the speed got too high. I later realized I maybe could have disabled regen in the car settings, though I can't remember if that's an option. Despite my efforts, the car did gain 7 miles above the miles it would charge to at home. Once we got down the mountain I kept to surface streets, accelerated slowly, and didn't worry about the regen at stoplights.
I was pleasantly surprised Tesla said I could have a loaner vehicle once I was down there (but mad they never said I could have one earlier when I asked twice in the text chat) but they wouldn't have one till the next day. I ended up telling them I wouldn't be back down the mountain till the next week, and now my car is ready before I was going to head down again, so oh well.
What does make me mad is they said during their test drive there was a whining coming from the drive unit during their test drive and they "kindly" offered to give me an estimate on replacing it which no doubt would be many thousands of dollars. That whining has been there for at least four years and service never bothered to comment on it until it was out of warranty, even when I did two test drives with service techs for other issues plus ~10 other service visits including the previous battery replacement under warranty where they would have done the same test drive they did now. Luckily the sound is fairly quiet and doesn't bother me so I'm not going to replace the drive unit but waiting till it's out of warranty to let me know it's not normal is really sleazy.
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My impression from reading various posts (though this is pure speculation) is that Tesla repair options for Model S batteries vary a lot depending on what batteries are currently available and the Tesla service centre policy. Perhaps that's not surprising since:
* Model S is a relatively low volume car
* There was a range of different batteries used over the years
* (Some?) older batteries were manufactured by third parties
* The older batteries are no longer being manufactured
* Battery manufacturing capacity is oversubscribed and used for making new cars, not replacement batteries
* Failure modes and reuse potential of batteries vary
* If I understand correctly there's only one battery remanufacturing plant in the USA.
All of this would seem to add up to relatively little liquidity in the used Model S battery market. I'm hoping there'll be more consistency with Model 3 battery replacements mostly because of the greater battery volume. It's one of the factors that made a nearly new Model 3 seem like a less risky long-term investment than an older Model S.
henderrj
Active Member
Good summation with one minor exception. All the battery cells were made by panasonic. All the battery packs were assembled by tesla.
Also, we don't know if they can still make the old style batteries. The 3s and Ys don't use the same type of battery pack as the old S and X. I don't even think the model S and model X refresh units use the same battery shape. But maybe they do. Even then I don't believe anybody's figured out how to put them into the new cars. Maybe Jason Hughes will!
In any event, they could still make batteries with the old equipment, if they've kept it up and kept it operational. I'm going to guess they have, as we still see people getting brand new 90 kilowatt hour packs as a replacement for their 85s.
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