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How long do the Battery Packs Last?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by bareyb, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. bareyb

    bareyb Active Member

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    I just purchased a Model S 85, but I still have a few questions if anyone can help. Mainly questions about the Battery Life and replacement:

    1. Does anyone know how long the Battery Packs are expected to last on average (Miles or Years)?

    2.When they run out of juice what then? I have heard they cost like 40 Grand to replace... Can't see putting 40 grand into a car that's 8 years old (as an example). Will the cars be worth much if the battery packs are nearing their age limit?

    3. Does Tesla have any type of trade-in program or any plan for cars with half dead battery packs?
     
  2. Seven7

    Seven7 Member

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    The 40k number is probably an old number for a roadster battery. Im not an expert on Tesla model S battery packs but have heard the 12k price bounced around. I'm sure somebody with better info than me will be along to answer this or you could always try asking Tesla themselves. Hope this helps.
     
  3. dirkhh

    dirkhh Middle-aged Member

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    Tesla charges you $8k to go from 60 to 85. So my guess would be somewhere around $25k for an 85kWh battery.
     
  4. ChadS

    ChadS Petroleum is for sissies

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    Nobody really knows all the answers for sure. Especially "how long they last", which is not really answerable. It depends on many factors; and some of them are not in Tesla's control. And they they slowly lose capacity, so it's more a question of when you want more range than when it "dies".

    One forum member recently asked what it would cost to replace his Model S battery now; I believe he was quoted over $40k for an 85kWh battery. (That's retail price; Tesla's cost is likely significantly lower. Tesla may be pack-limited so they may be trying to discourage people from doing this now). However, there's no need to replace it now - Tesla has said that unless you intentionally harm your battery, they will replace it free if something goes wrong. (Although it looks like that doesn't cover unusual degradation, but hard to tell for sure). It has an 8-year warranty; unlimited miles if you get the 85kWh. 8 years from now, the price is likely to be significantly lower.

    Tesla has said they will pre-sell replacement batteries; under that plan you would pay $12k for a new 85kWh battery in, I assume, 8 years. If it's like the Roadster replacement battery, you pay more if you get a new one earlier, less if you get it later. They didn't say WHEN they would offer that program and it doesn't appear to be available yet.

    The "design life" of the batteries is supposedly about 16 years (though Tesla has said very little on this subject). 16 years from now you should have 60% of the battery left; hopefully their numbers are conservative as they were for the Roadster. That's 159 miles if you range-charge an 85kWh. So you may not have to replace the battery at all. Although some time in the next 16 years you might find it worth buying an upgrade. Or just get a new car, and let somebody else have the older car that doesn't mind the lower range...

    Cars with older batteries are worth less as long as batteries are expensive (though their value would jump way up after a replacement); that's why Roadster values are so low...everybody is afraid the batteries will die soon (though the Plug In America battery survey indicates that is not likely the case) and that it will still cost almost $40k to replace them. Presumably Tesla will lower the price of the batteries at some point, but nobody knows when or how much. The sooner they announce it, the higher the price has to be because of their costs, so waiting has advantages. I think Tesla should provide another battery replacement program for the Roadster; that way they can price the program low, but not have to actually make the replacement batteries for a few years. That would make people feel more comfortable with questions like these.
     
  5. Seven7

    Seven7 Member

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    Thanks for the excellent answer ChadS. I probably go to weird exterme of running a squirrel cage fan under my car while its charging, cant hurt and keeping the battery cool in florida can be tough.
     
  6. bareyb

    bareyb Active Member

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    I was not aware the 85 battery had an 8 year warranty unlimited. Is that any 85 or just the "P"? That's really good news. Thank you for the very informative post. I appreciate it. :)
     
  7. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    Here's what the Plug in America survey summarized from their findings of the Roadster battery:

    "Of the factors considered – miles driven, vehicle age, and climate – only mileage showed
    a significant correlation with battery pack capacity.

    Data collected suggests that, on average, a Roadster battery pack will have between 80%
    and 85% of original capacity after 100,000 miles."

    Supposedly the Model S battery is more advanced and will perform better than the Roadster battery.

    The full results are here: http://www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/tesla-roadster/PIA-Roadster-Battery-Study.pdf
     
  8. SCW-Greg

    SCW-Greg Active Member

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    #8 SCW-Greg, Sep 8, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
    Excellent and accurate feedback from ChadS and Cosmacelf.

    To back Cosmacelf, I believe Richkae's research here is showing about 1% decay per year for the Roadster's batteries, which isn't as advanced or well managed as the Model S system. So one could postulate that the batteries might have an even longer life than 16 years, with even less decay as ChadS mentions.

    Also... advancements in battery technology, will likely mean that in 5-7 years, affordability, life expectancy, and extended range will be significantly enhanced. I.e. advancements in chemistry may lead to batteries that have nearly five times the energy density, weigh significantly less, and have 10x life spans. While current technology could cost a third as much as today, making replacements much more affordable.

    Next-Gen Batteries: Lithium-Air Secondary Auto Batteries to Give Cars 800km Range per Charge | BusinessKorea

    Ultimately none of us really know or sure, but we're paving that trail to the (un)known as we go.
     
  9. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    And as the battery swap demo showed, upgrading the pack after 10 years or so will take all of 90 seconds!
     
  10. spleen

    spleen Active Member

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    All 85 kWh batteries. From the Tesla website under Specs

    teslabatterywarranty.jpg
     
  11. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    I find it odd that we haven't heard anything about this recently. Is it going the way of the panoramic roof sunshade?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Model S Design Studio | Tesla Motors
     
  12. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    The warranty is against failure, not "normal" degradation (although I don't think Tesla has defined what is normal is and what is not).
     
  13. aviators99

    aviators99 Model S - R140

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    As I mentioned in the other thread (to which Chad referred), I recently got a quote for a new 85kWh battery and it is over $46,000. Obviously it doesn't make sense for me to do this because it would be cheaper for me to sell in the car and buy a new one to effect a battery replacement. In 8 months I've had 9% degradation from my starting rated range and 6% degradation from advertised rated range. So, at least for me I'm not getting the kind of predicted numbers above. In reality, my degradation was all in 5-6 months, as I had absolutely no degradation for the first few months and then it suddenly dropped all at once.
     
  14. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    I get asked this question all the time and I answer that the battery lasts until your daily range drops below your daily driving. A car with 500,000 miles on it may only show 140 miles of range in trip-mode (100%) after charging, but if you only drive 60 miles a day, it still meets your needs... I have heard small anecdotes here and there about test cars and mileage, but none of them are public. The closest thing we can go with is the Roadster study and the anecdotal evidence that is coming from the Model S community. Even the latter is influenced, though, by the changes in the way range is calculated from 3.x to 4.0 to 4.5 to 5.0. Imagine a day when the Model S battery can be charged in 5-10 minutes; when Superchargers are considerably wider-spread... maybe this whole range thing falls out of our vocabulary, like in the ICE world.

    I'm coming up on 10 months and just passed 11,000 miles. On 5.0, after a trip charge, my car shows 260 miles of range (vs. the original 265). That's 1.9%. We know the first year is the toughest on batteries... seems pretty good to me.

    (Quick note: some people are calculating from 270 or 272 or whatever they saw when they first received the car, but I don't do that because the range calculations changed in the last few software releases, even 5.0 I hear has some tweaks to it.)
     
  15. gaswalla

    gaswalla P4201/85/airsusp/pano/19i

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    your car may have had a greater range when you took delivery, but the rated range on a range charge for a 85 is supposed to be 265 -- technically, you have no degradation.
     
  16. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    You caught me in the 15 seconds it took me between posting and editing, when I realized I put the wrong number in there... your quote caught the change though. :)

    (I originally had 265 miles after trip charge, but it's 260.)
     
  17. aviators99

    aviators99 Model S - R140

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    By the way, that's why I quoted both (9% from my starting rated range - 273, and 6% from advertised - 265). Incidentally, my sudden drop happened in between s/w updates. I am at 250 now.
     
  18. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    I'm at about 12,000 miles / 6 months and saw 260 miles of Rated Range on the one and only Range charge I've ever done (a month or so ago).
     
  19. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    Your case is very weird. How many miles are you at right now?
     
  20. stevezzzz

    stevezzzz R;SigS;P85D;SigX

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    I'm at 14,000 miles in my S85 and get 262-264 rated miles on a Trip charge. I don't know what it was before, because I only used Trip charges in the last month.
     

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