How long until SR LFP range hits LR range

[Kenners]

Was wondering people’s ideas on battery deg between the new LFP batteries and the older but larger Li-ion batteries that come with the M3 LR.

I assume that the battery deg on the LFP packs is a lot lower, so was wondering at what point would the range cross over (think there is about a fifty mile real world gap at the moment), i.e when would the LFP M3 range start to exceed the LR M3, after five years/60k miles or longer?

I am also assuming the LFP packs are going to last a lot longet, Inhave in my mind these are the million mile batteries that Elon used to talk about but now no one ever mentions!

I was thinking about this is terms of residuals in a few years time.

 

[Burley]

Its hard to say. the LFP technology is much older, so maybe less stressed and therefore degradation will be lower. My LR is coming up to one year old, it has a little over 13k miles on it and currently shows less than 2% degradation over that first year and distance driven. It has the LG battery. Given that everyone says the first year has the highest losses, it could take a while for the LR & LFP to cross over I think.

 

[yessuz]

Was wondering people’s ideas on battery deg between the new LFP batteries and the older but larger Li-ion batteries that come with the M3 LR.

I assume that the battery deg on the LFP packs is a lot lower, so was wondering at what point would the range cross over (think there is about a fifty mile real world gap at the moment), i.e when would the LFP M3 range start to exceed the LR M3, after five years/60k miles or longer?

I am also assuming the LFP packs are going to last a lot longet, Inhave in my mind these are the million mile batteries that Elon used to talk about but now no one ever mentions!

I was thinking about this is terms of residuals in a few years time.

Hard to compare residuals...

Firstly we do not even know LFP degradation level in real life after 4 years.

Secondly LR has just ~20% bigger battery.

Thirdly LR has dual motor - more power, AWD and I think some aspects better interior (audio system)...

All in all it will still ne a better value car

 

[Burley]

..and it charges faster.

 

[WannabeOwner]

when would the LFP M3 range start to exceed the LR M3, after five years/60k miles or longer?

What is the expected degradation on LR M3? I'll guess around 5-7% at 100K miles & 5 years, so perhaps 15 - 20 miles of range loss - is that a reasonable guess?

 

[Limey]

LR will hold its value better than holding its range, if some are expecting only 5% after 100k they might be in for a surprise.

 

[Llama.]

The LFP battery Model 3 is an amazing car and a compelling purchase.

But I don’t think the LR battery will degrade to the point that it has less range than a LFP battery SR Model 3.

For reference, my M3 LR has 341 range with 9,000 miles on the clock.

Not sure what sort of degradation that represents, but it hasn’t impacted on how I use the car.

 

[Irata]

All batteries degrade, regardless of type.

Although take a look at the degredation plots (you can find the data in the battery discussion forum). In summary, it won't happen within the lifetime of the car.

 

[WannabeOwner]

LR will hold its value better than holding its range, if some are expecting only 5% after 100k they might be in for a surprise

And why is that?

 

[Llama.]

Was wondering people’s ideas on battery deg between the new LFP batteries and the older but larger Li-ion batteries that come with the M3 LR.

I assume that the battery deg on the LFP packs is a lot lower, so was wondering at what point would the range cross over (think there is about a fifty mile real world gap at the moment), i.e when would the LFP M3 range start to exceed the LR M3, after five years/60k miles or longer?

I am also assuming the LFP packs are going to last a lot longet, Inhave in my mind these are the million mile batteries that Elon used to talk about but now no one ever mentions!

I was thinking about this is terms of residuals in a few years time.

I did consider the SR+ when I ordered my LR, but I discounted it due to range. I can easily get 275 motorway miles in poor conditions in my LR and have put this to the test. This simply isn’t possible in the SR+.
This was really important for me in my choice.

I would expect the LR to have slightly more degradation than the SR+ , but not ‘a lot more’ as you put it. I think Ive lost a negligible 2 miles of range in my first year of ownership.

So I don’t think this 50 mile real world gap will close much over time.

Having said all that the LFP SR+ is a great car, with genuine long range and should hold its value well.

But I think there is a general expectation that longer range EVs will hold their value over shorter range EVs.

So when we are all selling our Tesla model 3s to UBER drivers in four years time, there will be a lot of cars with range similar to the SR+ to chose from (most with a hatchback), but the LR will still stand out with its more usable long range compared to SR+ and all the other cars with similar range .

 

[WannabeOwner]

we are all selling our Tesla model 3s to UBER drivers in four years time, there will be a lot of cars with range similar to the SR+ to chose from (most with a hatchback

I think an EV bought when it was first launched (i..e "first in class") is going to have high 2nd hand value because demand will outstrip supply.

Unless newer cars are cheaper (might be, given a breakthrough in energy density of battery-cells, or sudden fix to the current shortage of all manufacturing materials!, or dramatically more government grant [that has been going the other way]) then I don't see early adopters losing out.

There just won't be the quantity of THAT Age / Mileage vehicles being available. Tipping point of EV adoption will then cause number of people wanting 2nd hand ICE to drop like a stone (and ICE being banned from city centres; fuel price rising; locations where fuel available reducing), which will increase demand for 2nd hand EVs

 

[Jason71]

What may happen in the not to distant future is a new standard M3 will have more range than a typical used 2019 M3 LR as efficiencies improve. But given the price rises it now also costs about the same as a 2019 M3 LR did when new!

 

[WannabeOwner]

What may happen in the not to distant future is a new standard M3 will have more range than a typical used 2019 M3 LR as efficiencies improve

I agree. But, in that scenario, they won't have yet become available 2nd hand when the older M3's are sold on.

Whether the presence of "better" newer M3s in the marketplace will drive 2nd price down, even though the newer ones are not available for given Age/Mileage ... that I have no idea on. Maybe that's a standard Economics 101 question!

 

[Irata]

What may happen in the not to distant future is a new standard M3 will have more range than a typical used 2019 M3 LR as efficiencies improve. But given the price rises it now also costs about the same as a 2019 M3 LR did when new!

That's a good point. It highlights the standard model is simply turning into the original LR, I suspect that may be why they dropped the SR+ name.

I am not sure if this is what the OP's was asking though. I think they were thinking that same aged cars would somehow converge on their available range because of differing degredation. Which current data doesn't support, because the LR would have to degrade at a rate greater than the battery warranty.

Eventually the rate of degredation does almost flat line, it's mostly all within the first few years which is also within warranty.

I stress, that's as of now. Variants yet to be released, we can't know.

 

[Dommmm]

I'm going to put another aspect to the topic out there and apologies if it's a bit off course. From what I've read the LFP is a bit more environment friendly over the Nickel-cobalt variants. That is certainly something that helped me on my decision.
I know there are much more technically minded people who certainly know more about the battery tech side of things, who can shed more light on that. But perhaps that in the future will influence how the next generations of Ev's are made.

 

[Big Earl]

What is the expected degradation on LR M3? I'll guess around 5-7% at 100K miles & 5 years, so perhaps 15 - 20 miles of range loss - is that a reasonable guess?

Just one data point. If you want more data points, there are several threads discussing long range degradation. My 2018 with 144,000 miles is at 280 out of 310 original miles, for right around 10% degradation. Sometimes it’ll show in the 270s… it varies a bit.

It still charges fast (250 kW) and can add 30 kWh in just 10 minutes (!) going from 5% to 50%. An LFP pack can’t do that, at least not currently.