How many believe that the FTC will find Tesla did use deceptive marketing practices?

[daktari]

Tesla FSD is the biggest kickstarter scandal ever.

 

[Matias]

FSD Timeline Promises (summary)

Here is a great summary of what Elon has communicated about the FSD timeline. https://motherfrunker.ca/fsd/ Full copy below for archival September 2014 They will be a factor of 10 safer than a person [at the wheel] in a six-year time frame Source December 2015 We're going to end up with...

teslamotorsclub.com

28 easily verifiable false promises

 

[Terminator857]

I think a class action lawsuit will do a better job of discouraging Elon from saying automatic driving on city streets in 2019, but if the FTC does something then great.

 

[Atari2600]

Reminder of Level 5:

Level 5: Full Automation. Level 5-capable vehicles are fully autonomous. No driver is required behind the wheel at all. In fact, Level 5 vehicles might not even have a steering wheel or gas/brake pedals.

Reminder that some people actually paid for this. "In the future, Model 3 will be capable of conducting trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat."
I guess we can debate what a "trip" is. Elon could add an automatic LSD dispenser and say he met the goals.

 

[not-Martin]

I think it is pretty obvious that Elon's claims about FSD have been misleading. He's made a lot of claims over the years about FSD being solved, about our cars being L5, about doing cross country FSD etc.. that have not happened. But Tesla was careful to put the usual legal disclaimers on the website about the software not being autonomous, needing regulatory approval etc... If you ignore Elon's claims and only look at the official marketing on the website, Tesla can probably get off.

Website statements & printed contract words are not sufficient to legally get off

 

[not-Martin]

But full autonomy is Level 5. Which the CEO of Tesla stated, would be a capability of all Tesla's with FSD, by 12/31/2021.

Actually he stated it would be by 2017

 

[not-Martin]

We can argue amongst us all day but please tell me why this ice cream truck driver of a senator has it out for Tesla? Go after real problems.

Deceiving consumers, thousands of them, is a real problem

 

[Dan D.]

We can argue amongst us all day but please tell me why this ice cream truck driver of a senator has it out for Tesla? Go after real problems.

Deceiving consumers, thousands of them, is a real problem

I applaud anyone who can see the potential for a problem and attempt to mitigate it. We have been lucky that ADAS systems have not caused more problems. I think largely that's because cars with the most advanced driver systems tended to be in more expensive cars, and I'm going to lean towards expensive cars being mostly driven by more responsible drivers (mostly...). As this stuff trickles down to the people who are more likely to ignore the manual, drive badly, or just be a goofball there is more potential for more problems. Some people, such as the Senators, are trying to encourage a safer environment, through regulation if necessary.

Honestly, if you released FSD Beta right now to every Tesla driver who wants it, and the same thing to every Mach-E, ID4, Camry, BMW etc. driver out there it would be nuts. AP and SuperCruise, BlueCruise etc. are only just starting to be misused, this technology needs to be taken seriously, these are not toys to be raced.

 

[rxlawdude]

For those talking class action suits, you might want to check your sales contract that precludes class action lawsuits and requires arbitration. That is, unless you opted out within 30 days as now is permitted.

Small Claims Court is excluded, however. I'm still waiting for the first brave soldier to sue in SCC and report back on your results. And just think, the class attorneys won't take 33% like in a class action. In fact, no attorneys are permitted in SCC (at least in California), and most states have a $10,000 limit on SCC claims.

So, who's up for proving fraud? For the record, I don't think fraud can be proven, but I'm happy if someone proffers the claim in SCC and wins. That would then encourage others to do the same. If it turns into a movement, Tesla won't be happy about this, but you'll have their attention for sure.

 

[rxlawdude]

Reminder that some people actually paid for this. "In the future, Model 3 will be capable of conducting trips with no action required by the person in the driver's seat."
I guess we can debate what a "trip" is. Elon could add an automatic LSD dispenser and say he met the goals.

View attachment 698873

Except for that last paragraph, you might have a case. And when specifically is "in the future?"

 

[not-Martin]

‘Reasonable’ test
A judge will ask what would a reasonable person define as ‘future’?
I would expect the judge will look at public statements made by Tesla/Musk in determining how far in future is ’reasonable’.

 

[Atari2600]

Except for that last paragraph, you might have a case. And when specifically is "in the future?"

I don't think Ohio has any regulations, local or state wide, on self driving cars do they? If "in the future" is beyond the life of the car could that be considered deceptive?

 

[rxlawdude]

I don't think Ohio has any regulations, local or state wide, on self driving cars do they? If "in the future" is beyond the life of the car could that be considered deceptive?

Perhaps. It's a more nuanced issue when disposing a vehicle with FSD paid for, especially after several years. Not based on fraud or deception per se, but on an equity principle broadly called unjust enrichment, where one party profits without actually delivering its obligation during a relevant period.

Ending ownership without ever seeing much change in functionality is different than threatening legal action for fraud while owning it, where no date certain has been given for delivery of "FSD."

 

[goRt]

I think it is pretty obvious that Elon's claims about FSD have been misleading. He's made a lot of claims over the years about FSD being solved, about our cars being L5, about doing cross country FSD etc.. that have not happened. But Tesla was careful to put the usual legal disclaimers on the website about the software not being autonomous, needing regulatory approval etc... If you ignore Elon's claims and only look at the official marketing on the website, Tesla can probably get off.

Just more stock price manipulation then

 

[BrerBear]

n For those talking class action suits, you might want to check your sales contract that precludes class action lawsuits and requires arbitration. That is, unless you opted out within 30 days as now is permitted.

Small Claims Court is excluded, however. I'm still waiting for the first brave soldier to sue in SCC and report back on your results. And just think, the class attorneys won't take 33% like in a class action. In fact, no attorneys are permitted in SCC (at least in California), and most states have a $10,000 limit on SCC claims.

So, who's up for proving fraud? For the record, I don't think fraud can be proven, but I'm happy if someone proffers the claim in SCC and wins. That would then encourage others to do the same. If it turns into a movement, Tesla won't be happy about this, but you'll have their attention for sure.

Very strongly considering CA small claims here. 90% sure I want to, but the issue is timing and doing the research.

One of my Tesla’s is a June 2019 lease with FSD.

In less than a year it goes back, with or without the FSD I paid for delivered to me. And if it gets activated a month before return, I don’t know if that counts.

 

[golfpilot]

Very strongly considering CA small claims here. 90% sure I want to, but the issue is timing and doing the research.

One of my Tesla’s is a June 2019 lease with FSD.

In less than a year it goes back, with or without the FSD I paid for delivered to me. And if it gets activated a month before return, I don’t know if that counts.

FSD is just EAP right now. You knew that when you leased the car.

 

[Ptheven]

FSD is just EAP right now. You knew that when you leased the car.

if he acquired the car in June 2019, by that point I believe they were saying in writing that auto steer on city streets would be delivered by end of year.

 

[Microterf]

For those talking class action suits, you might want to check your sales contract that precludes class action lawsuits and requires arbitration. That is, unless you opted out within 30 days as now is permitted.

Small Claims Court is excluded, however. I'm still waiting for the first brave soldier to sue in SCC and report back on your results. And just think, the class attorneys won't take 33% like in a class action. In fact, no attorneys are permitted in SCC (at least in California), and most states have a $10,000 limit on SCC claims.

So, who's up for proving fraud? For the record, I don't think fraud can be proven, but I'm happy if someone proffers the claim in SCC and wins. That would then encourage others to do the same. If it turns into a movement, Tesla won't be happy about this, but you'll have their attention for sure.

That is why I emailed them and demanded arbitration. I finally got the form to fill out and opened a case with AAA at adr.org.

My whole argument might be different than others on here as I definitely wasn't expecting L5 autonomy anytime soon, but I was expecting access to the software as it was released in a timely manner.

 

[rxlawdude]

That is why I emailed them and demanded arbitration. I finally got the form to fill out and opened a case with AAA at adr.org.

My whole argument might be different than others on here as I definitely wasn't expecting L5 autonomy anytime soon, but I was expecting access to the software as it was released in a timely manner.

Let us know how that turns out for you.

 

[Microterf]

Let us know how that turns out for you.

Will do. I don't have high expectations, but we'll see. Unless I'm under a gag order when it's done. Then I'll just share videos if FSD beta, and you'll know how it turned out.