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How many new jobs has Tesla created around the Model S?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by artsci, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    As a comeback to my politically conservative friends who seem to be addicted to ICE's and threatened by the government's loans to Tesla, does anyone know how many jobs have been created around the Model S? I think it's in the thousands but I'd like the real number.
     
  2. Tesla 940

    Tesla 940 Member

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    If you friends are "threatened" by loans how do they feel about Government Motors and Chrysler?

    Besides - according to Obama - Telsa, and any other company for that matter, can't create jobs without the Government FIRST building the infrastructure to do so - so therefor Tesla didn't create the jobs, the Government did!
     
  3. metafor

    metafor Member

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    You're going to have a hard time with these kind of arguments. Regardless of how effective (or ineffective) the result of a DOE loan is, people with their minds set will always religiously go with the mantra "it would've been better without government intervention". If Tesla currently employs ~1000 people and grows to be a large automotive corporation in the future, the same people will still extol that the overall situation would've been even better without the DOE loan; that either another company would've taken the EV torch so that the $400M loan could've been used for "better" purposes.

    The problem with any of these discussions is that there's no empirical way to test these assertions; it's not possible to turn back time and reproduce this scenario with and without the DOE loan. Without such, there's no way to conclude whether the DOE loan was helpful or harmful in either the short-term or long-term. I think all of us here can agree that moving to EV and renewable energy is a positive move for the U.S. and the world as a whole.

    So I guess my advice is, stop arguing with your conservative friends :)

    Politics on this type of scale resemble religious beliefs far more than scientific studies; it's difficult if not impossible to actually measure the results in a controlled environment in order to reach a conclusion of what works and what doesn't.
     
  4. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    We are way OT from artsci's question (about employment thanks to Tesla) but, here's an interesting read from IEEE about Govt. helping spawn/spread many pathbreaking technologies of the day:

    Your Engineering Heritage: The U.S. Federal Government and Innovation, a Brief History

    It's not all black and white in my opinion; Govt. does have a role to play to nudge nascent (and usually capital-intensive) innovations forward. We are not talking tablets and smartphones here!
     
  5. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    #5 artsci, Oct 23, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2012
    Since I started this topic, I guess I can take it further off topic.

    Having spent a lot of time in China and also having worked on consulting assignment for Shenhua Energy Group, China's largest vertically-integrated power enterprise, I no longer buy the argument that government investment/intervention makes little difference. One of the reason's the Chinese are eating our lunch is precisely because of government intervention, direction, and investment. And many of the companies eating our lunch are state-owned enterprises. China's version of "communism" would make Lenin roll over in his grave. It's really state-guided capitalism. My guess is that if Tesla were in China, the government would be going full bore to invest in the company to see that China controlled the electric car market worldwide.

    I know things in China are further complicated by theft of IP, corruption (which makes our corruption look lame), environmental devastation, and many other troubling concerns, but without development of wise government incentives, we'll slip further and further behind. Corporate research budgets in the U.S today are a shadow of what they were a decade or two ago. Who's going to fill the void?

    Now back to my original question. Or perhaps I can ask it a different way. How many people does Tesla Motors employ?
     
  6. artsci

    artsci Sponsor

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    I just answered my own question. The sources I found say that Tesla has about 1,400 employees. At the rate the company appears to be hiring I'm sure that number is growing every day.
     
  7. Arnold Panz

    Arnold Panz Model Sig 304, VIN 542

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    That's direct employees, but when these things are calculated, they regularly include employees at suppliers, vendors, etc., not to mention people who work near the factory (sandwich shops, bike stores etc.) who are thriving because the plant has hundreds of people working there. When they talk about the auto industry bailout saving over a million jobs, it's not just the employees of the big 3, but all these others as well. I think for the big 3 they say there are 2 or 3 other jobs for every one job at Ford/Gm/Chrysler, so Tesla can probably claim 5000 or something, plus they're still hiring.
     
  8. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    That 1,400-something (as noted on Wikipedia and TSLA's profile on Yahoo Finance) is as of December 2011:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors

    This was well before the factory staffing in 2012 and the product-specialist/ownership/delivery-experience/service personnel hiring this year. Am guessing nudging 3,000 employees now.

    Tesla's own website says 2,000+ but, as we know, their website doesn't get too much love:

    About Tesla | Tesla Motors

    All the same, echo Josh's comments about the additional employment generated in the entire Tesla ecosystem - even in Japan at Panasonic.
     
  9. Discoducky

    Discoducky Active Member

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    Knowing Elon, I'd expect a # during the earnings call.
     
  10. gg_got_a_tesla

    gg_got_a_tesla Model S: VIN P65513, Model 3 Res Holder

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    The day before the election at that :)
     
  11. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    Can you name a major industry in the U.S. that doesn't have it's fingers in the taxpayers pockets?
    The defense industry, the auto industry ( before the bailouts by building the road system ), the oil industry, agribusiness, the financial industry, the prison industrial complex, the legal drug business ( aka the health system ), the illegal drug business ( can't have illegal drugs without demand and laws making them illegal )...
    They are all directly paid for, subsidized, or enabled by government.
    The difference between the US and China is that their government probably has a plan beyond helping the 1% get richer than they are.
     
  12. Krugerrand

    Krugerrand Active Member

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    Except, if you ask Tesla, I'm sure they'd say the DOE loan has been helpful short-term. Afterall, they have used that money. And if they end up succeeding then they'll say it was helpful long-term.

    And as they pay back that loan (early as it seems), then it can be said that the Gov't and the taxpayers played a role in Tesla's survival and eventual success. That makes it a win/win, and then all political arguments (and JP articles, and naysayers fodder) are nothing more than hot air that has dissipated.
     
  13. Citizen-T

    Citizen-T Active Member

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    As a conservative myself who has had this conversation many times with friends and family, let me offer you some points that I have used. I have not yet met a conservative that I have not been able to turn in favor of EVs (usually via Tesla). The trick is you need to appeal to conservative values, not try to convince them that they should accept your values.

    For example, I've said things like this:

    "You're right, I'd love to see the government get out of this and let the market decide. The problem is that the government is already pumping tons of money into ICEs and the oil industry. The market is already being manipulated, and since it is not easy to take away subsidies, the only way to give EVs a fair chance is to give them some subsidies too. I'll tell you what, you agree that the government should drop all subsidies for anything related to ICEs or oil and I'll agree that they should axe the tax credit and that they shouldn't do these types of loans."

    Then I usually divert the conversation to national security. Now when I say that, I don't mean go all "world peace" on them and say that wars are about nothing but oil and if we didn't need oil then we could all live in harmony --- that won't fly. You do it like this:

    "You know, the scary thing is that a lot of the oil that our economy depends on comes from countries that hate our guts. I mean, we're the most powerful country on earth and they've basically got us by the balls because we can't risk disrupting that supply. Furthermore, we are sending Trillions of dollars overseas and plenty of that is getting into the hands of terrorist groups that are killing our troops. Imagine, when you swipe your credit card at the pump, you might be paying for the gun that is going to kill a U.S. soldier.

    If we could just use our own resources to power our cars, then we break out of that cycle. Now maybe that means coal, or maybe it means nuclear, or Nat Gas, or even solar --- I don't know --- but they all can be used to make electricity, so while a coal backed EV might not be a great "green machine", it makes a damn good anti-terrorist weapon. I like that I know where my fuel came from and where my money is going." (here's a good place to throw in that Tesla is American and cars are made in America)

    There are a dozen other arguments that can be made for EVs that appeal to the conservative world-view. Bob Lutz has articulated many of them quite well.

    Again, the problem that I see is that when most people try to sell conservatives on EVs, they try to do it by telling them that they need to change their values. This is a terrible sales tactic. It's like Apple's "you need to hold your phone differently then you won't have that signal drop problem" response. If you want to win over a conservative, demonstrate for them how the EV solves the problems that they care about --- don't tell them to care about different problems.
     
  14. Arnold Panz

    Arnold Panz Model Sig 304, VIN 542

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    +1 to Citizen-T. I have many friends who truly don't believe global warming is real. To them, I simply say that EVs help stop us giving money (indirectly) to some of the worst autocracies (e.g., Saudi Arabia) and our biggest enemies in the world (e.g., Iran). The world oil markets impact every oil-producing country, so the less demand their is for oil, the worse off those countries will be. I ask, "Do you enjoy funding our enemies every time you fill up your gas guzzler?"

    This worked so well with one friend that when Romney blasted Tesla in the debate, he wrote me and said he's so pissed at Romney for doing that he may vote for Johnson (he'd never vote for Obama in a million years).
     
  15. teslasguy

    teslasguy MSP P#1117

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    +1 Very, very well articulated rationale that should appeal to any of us actually!
     

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