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How much extra would you pay for a Hotel with Destination Charging that you could Reserve?
- Thread starter Olle
- Start date
This is really cool. Have actually been wondering when this was going to happen.
Massively increased incentives for mass proliferation. According to this site, public facing equipment in $5500 per port. How Much Do EV Charging Stations Cost? - Future Energy
compare that with TWC at $400.
Yep.
The cost advantage is even bigger than that. That’s just the cost per unit. Installation is cheaper on the Tesla chargers because they can load share so you can get away with a much lower capacity smaller electrical sub panel. You can run 10 chargers off a 200 Amp service and when every single port is in use each charger gets 15 amps or so, but if 3 cars pull in, they get 60 amps each. Also, when cars are fully charged, it stops running power to those and gives more power to the remaining chargers.
With a non-Tesla charger, you can’t over provision like that. The only way you could have 10 chargers with 60 amps (potential) per car is with a 600+ amp service or multiple 200 amp sub panels. It’s a lot more expensive to provision that kind of juice.
The Tesla Wall Connector is maybe the only Tesla auto product which is much better and cheaper than the competition.
RTPEV
Active Member
Well the $400 TWC is not a direct comparison to a $5500 ruggedized charging station (whatever that site was using as a reference, which probably also includes dedicated installation costs). For sure I've seen hosts with $600 Clipper Creeks, which doesn't beat the Tesla cost, but it's at least closer to apples to apples.
And you can load share with non-Tesla EVSEs, although yes, the cost of those units does further add more cost.
Possibly the most cost effective solution is the Tesla destination charger and the Tesla J1772 EVSE (I'm pretty sure this supports load sharing as well, at least in pairs).
And you can load share with non-Tesla EVSEs, although yes, the cost of those units does further add more cost.
Possibly the most cost effective solution is the Tesla destination charger and the Tesla J1772 EVSE (I'm pretty sure this supports load sharing as well, at least in pairs).
bradtem
Robocar consultant
This is an area where one hopes the protocol can be shared. If I were a hotel pulling in a bunch of chargers, I might think that today 75% of the guests drive Teslas. Now, that would point to putting in 3 TWCs and one J1772, but you are not going to do that, because the mix will change every night, and Teslas can charge fine from J1772 with a minor inconvenience, so you are going to do the safe thing and want more J1772.
In addition, you don't know what the world will look like in future. Will Tesla continue to dominate? Will it grow or shrink? You don't know, but you know that all J1772 works for everybody, just not as well. It may be more expensive if you want the power sharing but if you want to share power between the Teslas and the other cars, your only option is a set of J1772 chargers with sharing. A bit more expensive but it works.
If the Tesla to J1772 adapters (the ones that let a J1772 car use a TPC) were cheaper, you could just have a supply of those on hand but they aren't.
So sadly, the logical thing to do is put in mostly J1772, maybe 100%. Which Tesla should fix, and either:
- Make those adapters available cheap and easy for other cars to use
- Bring back the J1772 version of the TWC
- Let people switch the cable on their TWC between Tesla and J1772 in the future as the market shifts
RTPEV
Active Member
So this is what I've been touting as a reasonable solution here...but you say "bring back". Has it been discontinued? (maybe my information is outdated)
It first got put on the site for sale on November 1, 2021, and they didn't last a month. They were sold out, and the page was removed, giving a 404 error by November 22. They're gone permanently.
Tesla now selling Gen 2 Wall Connector with J1772 plug
Tesla is now selling a J1772 Wall Connector on the Tesla online store. You can read more about the Tesla J1772 Wall Connector here: J1772 Gen 2 Wall Connector Also, while still showing as Out of Stock the Tesla Corded Mobile Connector has a lower price. The price has been reduced to $400 US...
teslamotorsclub.com
bradtem
Robocar consultant
More to the point, they would need to make the J1772 version of the TWC work with gen3's wifi protocol so it would be a new version. In the end it's just a different cord and telling the wall unit what cord it has.
Now the cord is a major part of the cost of an EVSE, so "swapping the cord" isn't quiet so easy. It might also make sense to allow you to just switch the end or have an adapter that can be locked on semi-permanently.
The main point stands. If you are a hotel putting in charging stations, your best course is to make most of them J1772 because J1772 can be handled by everybody. The old days of Tesla destination chargers are ending, a hotel is less inclined to support only Tesla drivers or to turn away anybody.
I think the J1772 version was a Gen 3.
The big difference isn’t the adaptor, its the fact that the Tesla connector opens a communications channel to the car. I’m not sure the J1772 does that.
That would be incredibly useful for chargers where they have fee based charging.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
While obviously Tesla cars all can talk their protocol (and hopefully can also talk ISO 15118 if they have the gen4 controller at least) I was not aware that TWCs did anything with it. TMCs don't seem to, when they get an error, the car knows nothing about the particulars of the error and tells you to check the adapter.
Of course, since Gen3 TWC uses wifi, the car could also talk to it that way even if it did not talk over the connector. But yes, billing, or just "what car am I?" so your charger only charges your cars and ones you approve can be useful.
When it comes to hotel charging auth you want to work hard to not have the auth get in the way of ease of use. So many charging station failures are due to auth problems, not electrical ones. If I reserve a hotel room with charging, and they assign me a stall, it's cool if other people who try to charge there get told its reserved. But that requires a way for me to tell the hotel how to identify my car. That's not an easy thing. You don't need security on it, so it could be your car just says your name and the hotel knows the names of its guests, but right now my car doesn't directly know my name (though my Tesla account does.)
You want a system that's plug and play, and would rather give out free electricity than ever not give electricity to an authorized user.
Another useful thing is for the charge controller to know how much charge each car needs. It can then calculate if it can't fill all the cars by morning, and decide what to do about it, including in some situations asking the drivers for more information, like when they plan to leave, or which one is first in line or which one will pay to get a larger share etc.
I just posted a link upthread. Tesla is allowing people to start billing for use with a Gen 3 charger. Presumably that means plug and charge will work with Teslas.
If the hotel offers enough charging stalls, identifying your car becomes much less of an issue.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
If they always have more stalls than guests needing them, sure. But that's not going to happen. So they do need to not offer charging to guests who did not reserve the charger when all of them are reserved. And ideally stop cars from ICEing them as well. For that, it would be nice to have some sort of cheap car detector (these exist and are found in many parking lots) so that if somebody parks in a stall and doesn't plug in, it sounds an alarm (and also at the front desk so that they ask the people who come it, "did you happen to park at an EV charging only spot and not plug in?")
RTPEV
Active Member
Sounds good, but I'm skeptical that it would work in practice.
For one thing, a cheap car detector is not going to know whether the car plugged in or not. That would require some kind of integration with the charging provider (although yes, I think these smart systems are available--but probably on very high end charging stations, or at least prototypes).
Second, many hotels have multiple entrances, and besides, I doubt front desk attendants are going to be monitoring this real-time and then seeking out culprits. It's hard enough to get host sites to enforce well marked charging spots in other venues...your average hotel staff is probably reluctant to piss of a guest unless they are absolutely sure, even though they should.
Plus, in many hotels, parking is at a premium. If they do dedicate a dozen spots for charging stations, and that night there are only 6 cars, it's pretty tough to explain to a guest why they have to park a block away.
I think the low-tech approach is probably the best bet:
- Clear signage and parking spot markings indicating these spots are reserved for guests that are charging and that improperly parked vehicles are subject to be towed
- Collecting license plate info from all guests with cars (so they can be contacted if there is an issue--they already do collect this at many hotels)
- Cones! These work very well. Perfect? No, but they do tend to keep the spots from being ICEd.
- Not exactly low-tech, but if there is an opportunity to have a gated off area of the parking lot for charging stations, program guests' key cards who have been approved to use the charging station access to the gate.
- The front desk can issue ChargePoint cards (or similar for other providers) to access a charging station. No card, no charge.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
I depends how dedicated they are to making sure you get a charge. Problem is, if the hotel is not near superchargers, I am really depending on this charge. If I can't charge after reserving a charge, it's a major issue for me. The hotel's rating will go down.
Sadly, clear signage does not prevent ICE cars from parking.
Yes, I am proposing -- and I am sure in the future this will exist -- EVSEs designed specifically for the hotel market. That talk to the car, that handle reservations or billing. Adding a tiny radar or other detector to them is not a big deal.
Yes, many hotels do collect plates. But even if they do try to contact the ICE car driver -- have you seen them do that? -- and it works, you are possibly some time from getting the spot clear. Hotels don't want this work, or this confrontation. They would prefer to resolve it immediately. The EVSE should just detect when somebody parks in the spot and doesn't plug in and alert the desk, "Somebody just arrived at the hotel and took an EV spot." If it's a guest checking in, they will be at the desk in 30 seconds, easy to resolve. Better would be that the detector is not a radar but a camera (a few $ more) and they get a picture of the car so they don't have to go out there.
Cones can work but they are an effort for the hotel staff, and a minor one for you.
Gated area is fine but much more expensive than this.
Issuing cards to charge stops non-reserved EV drivers but does not stop ICE drivers, or even EV drivers who block chargers (it happens, more than I would expect.) Also not the smooth experience that I think is the ideal to aim for
- When you reserve your room, reserve EV charging
- On arriving at hotel, follow signs for chargers. Screen tells you what charger is yours.
- Go to it, plug in, get your bags, walk into hotel. You are done until you leave.
RTPEV
Active Member
Not saying it will prevent them, but it gives drivers the warning that their cars will be towed if parked improperly, and more importantly the hotel the right to have the car towed. If a hotel intends to take offering charging seriously, this is going to be a necessary enforcement.
It wouldn't even need to be that sophisticated. An ultrasonic sensor would be able to tell whether the spot is occupied by a vehicle or not.
No, I haven't seen them do that because I don't think that's why they collect the plates today. This would be a new policy.
I still don't see how this is practical, given that the guest may go in through the side/back door, or could be confused with other guests coming in through the front door. And it's doubtful the guest would park there during checkin anyway, particularly if the charging stations are located in an out of the way section of the lot (as they should be).
Much less effort than the camera/stop the guest at the front desk. And I would gladly welcome that minor effort if it significantly increased my chances of getting a charge.
Yes, this would be used in special cases where the hotel already has a gated parking area.
See #1 above.
Okay, but I see such a streamlined solution as being a long ways off. Not that it's not a worthy goal, but let's walk before we run, shall we? Let's start with the lower tech and more likely to be implemented in the short term solutions. Then we can start to get fancy.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
It does not matter what door they use when they are arriving at the hotel, they will always go to the check-in desk. Later, if they go out and return, it could be an issue.
The problem is hotels don't want to do a lot of work, and they don't want to deal with confrontation and they definitely don't want to call tow trucks on one guest on behalf of another guest -- and you don't really want to wait for that either.
The best solution resolves it right away with no work by the hotel staff.
The trick about a camera is it can do all the work -- even reading licence plates if the car has one on the front. It can easily tell what type of car parked there and see it's not an EV -- AI is now pretty simple to do that sort of thing in the cloud.
But if you don't have that you can send a photo to the front desk staff, which they get on their phones. It's now quite common for hotel clerks to do a lot of interacting with the hotel computer system on their phones and that will get more common, since they can do it from anywhere, not just at the desk.
It's not really clear how to stop people ICEing. Right now the simplest way is to put the EV spots in the least desirable parking spots way at the back of the lot. It's not great but it means they don't get ICEd unless the hotel is full up and you get there last. I think we need experimentation to see what sort of sign works for desirable spots, which they will take if they like them. Cones can work but take effort for the staff. I think an EVSE that sees an ICE has parked there and starts blaring at them about how they will get towed would work pretty well.
RTPEV
Active Member
Yes, this is what I'm talking about. In a properly sited parking lot, the charging stations are not located right outside the front door (where people park when they check in). They are in an out of the way section of the parking lot. Upon checkin, most guests will park near the front, in a reserved spot for checkin, or under the portico if available, or at least near the front door until they check in and THEN go move their car. And again, if properly sited, the charging stations are out back or way off to the side, and many times there is a side or back door that the person would use instead of the front door. If ICEing or an "unreserved" usage is going to happen, it's going to be then.
Agree they don't want work (except the front-desk staff monitoring their computers or phones in addition to their normal duties sure sounds like work to me). And no, they don't want to call a tow truck, but if that's the policy, and it's well marked (as a deterrent which hopefully will avoid the need to call anyway), then it needs to be done. No, I don't want to wait, but I'd rather wait than not get a charge at all!
Again, I'm missing the "no work" piece of this. Even with the camera system, someone needs to be monitoring. Then they need to track down the offender, and take action to get the car moved. How is this "no work?" All I see you've added here is a way to get some kind of popup notification of the charging station to display on a phone or computer screen. And if implementing an end-to-end solution like this is "simple", it would exist. But since it doesn't, I suspect we are years away from anything like this being commercialized and commonplace. What are we supposed to do until then?
I'm not saying that your ideas don't have merit, but I see them as very long term solutions. I'm trying to list some short term solutions that can work today. I doubt cones are really going to be that much more a burden on hotel staff (if any) and will probably work 95% of the time today (and in fact ARE in use and working in at least two properties I have stayed at). In one case the front-desk person even had to come out and switch on the breaker for me, which I figured was a burden, but that's their system.
I think we are really talking over each other and rehashing the same old points, so at this point I think I'm just going to agree to disagree...and I'm not really disagreeing per se, just thinking that your solutions are more of a long term goal, whereas mine are things that could be put into practice today.
bradtem
Robocar consultant
If the EVSE has a camera and wifi (many have the wifi) and can snap a photo of a car that parks, and identify it as an ICE, it can start whooping before the driver leaves the spot. If it did that, I think a lot fewer ICE drivers would park in those spots. Of course, if the car then plugs in the alarm stops but you program it to err on the side of caution so it almost never whoops at an EV. The great thing is every new person who parks provides another photo to add to the car ident database. Self-supervised training if you want because you can tell the EVs, they are the ones that plug in. In a short time you have a great database of what EVs look like.
That's what I mean by no work. Only if the ICE ignores the alarm does the front desk have to try to do something about it. Of course you do silence the alarm at some point, and then you decide if to call the tow truck.
Now, the problem is hotels don't want to tow guests. It's just not good for business. Otherwise you could set up a system where the towing company pays for the camera on the EVSE because it gets a lot of revenue towing ICEs.
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