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How Repairable Will Structural Battery Be?

Discussion in 'Future Vehicles' started by theganjaguru, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. theganjaguru

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    I am curious how repairable the structural battery will be. I’m a big believer of reusing things.

    Seems like the only downside to a structural battery is that it could theoretically be much more difficult to repair since it will be part of the vehicle structure. Thoughts?
     
  2. mblakele

    mblakele beep! beep!

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    Remains to be seen. But here's a sample of recent discussion in the investor roundtable thread.

     
  3. theganjaguru

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    Thank you. I’m more interested in replacing a battery due to failure than repairing from an accident. It seems either case though you’d need to cut the frame and bolt on replacements. Not optimal.
     
  4. mblakele

    mblakele beep! beep!

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    Hmm, I'd think it'll be possible to replace some or all of the cells without cutting into the cast part. I wouldn't expect it to be trivial; but then rebuilding an internal-combustion engine isn't trivial either. Cells should very rarely fail, so why optimize the replacement process?

    Maybe there will be some debate around that, like the debate around iphone battery replacement ca. 2007. At the time many people thought they needed user-replaceable batteries like older phones had. Today most users accept the integrated battery design. It's still possible to replace the battery, but it requires specialized tools and most people wouldn't try to do it for themselves.
     
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  5. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    The cells are supposed to be glued in place and part of the structure. I expect it will have to be replaced as a complete unit.
     
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  6. mblakele

    mblakele beep! beep!

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    You may be right, and I expect rebuilds to require special equipment. But there’s glue and then there’s glue. The stuff Tesla plans to use could be structural without being impossible to remove. After all the cells will have to be recycled at the end of their useful life.
     
  7. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    Sure they'll be removable but probably not in a non destructive way. Recycling doesn't care about preserving pack integrity and cell function during removal. Tesla doesn't replace individual cells now, I don't expect that to change with the new packs. People tearing down Model 3 packs say it's really difficult to remove cells from the goo, and that's not structural goo.
     
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  8. ThomasD

    ThomasD Member

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    Does Tesla have it's own recycling process for the batteries or do they send them to a facility. Are these batteries considered hazardous waste?
     
  9. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    They were working with Umicore in Europe and I think Toxco/Retrieve Tech in the US. With JB at Redwood that may have changed now.
     
  10. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

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    Even with the current packs, if anything beyond a contactor needs replaced inside the battery is sent back to the factory to be repaired/refurbished. (They used to provide loaners pack and then give you your repaired pack back months later, now they just give you a refurb pack and their done.)

    I would expect this to be the same. The service centers job will only be to R&R the pack, they will do no repairs inside the pack beyond the PCS board(s).
     
  11. mblakele

    mblakele beep! beep!

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    (From the chat thread).
     
  12. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I'm fairly certain that any impact which would stress the pack would have resulted in a totaled vehicle anyway.
     
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  13. insaneoctane

    insaneoctane Active Member

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    Lots of shades of gray.... I don't think we can say that any impact that results in some micro - level, stress fracture, not as good as it was damage to the cells likely would have totalled the vehicle. This new structural battery pack with structural adhesives being stressed as a structural load bearing member with electrical components will need quite a bit of lifecycle and impact testing IMO. The adhesive selection alone will almost certainly be iterated over the years once real world testing results are in. I'm not saying not to do it, I'm saying it is difficult and the road is riddled with potholes along the way. With Tesla's high volume, a mistake requiring a pack recall could be very expensive.
     
  14. SSedan

    SSedan Active Member

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    What if structural means load bearing, not that it is permanent member?
     
  15. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I've been using lithium battery powered tools that see repeated impacts to minimally protected cells which result in no issues. I've dropped drills which were "totaled" and transferred their battery packs to new drills which keep performing without problem. Cells surrounded by structural adhesive are going to be much more durable.
     
  16. insaneoctane

    insaneoctane Active Member

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    Fair enough, but there are FAR more cells and connections in a Tesla battery pack than your Dewalt drill.
     
  17. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    And they are FAR better protected.
     
  18. imola.zhp

    imola.zhp Member

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    Similar things were said about the CFRP construction of the BMW i3 an i8. Videos when the cars came out went on and on about how easy it would be to repair.

    Then reality caught up and these cars were totaled at the smallest of accidents because no one had the training required to do the repair work. Shipping a car back and forth to special body shops isn't really a thing yet, maybe it will be one day, but for now insurance companies just write them off and move on.
     
  19. mblakele

    mblakele beep! beep!

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    That doesn’t seem like a good analogy because Tesla increasingly runs its own body shops — and its own insurance. Both are somewhat nascent today, but should mature around the same time as the structural battery.
     
  20. ThomasD

    ThomasD Member

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    Tesla won't be taking the losses in an accident. State National Insurance will
     

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