How Secure Are Teslas/Tesla Thefts

[delta0]

Prior to the implementation of pin-to-drive, relay attacks were actually quite popular to steal a Tesla. They quickly drove a Tesla to a tow truck and once the wheels stop spinning while being towed, the GPS is useless as it only gives the last location and not the present one.

They would tear the Tesla apart and sell it off.

Explains why people have been enquiring about putting Airtags in them

 

[Tam]

Explains why people have been enquiring about putting Airtags in them

AirTags could be used to track your Tesla as long as there's a cooperative device near it.

There have been successful reports of locating a stolen car but there have been way more complaints that unknown AirTags stalking them. For example, thieves would attach one on a nice car to track it and steal the car at their own choosing.

 

[Adopado]

Prior to the implementation of pin-to-drive, relay attacks were actually quite popular to steal a Tesla.

Model X and S rather than Model 3 ...

 

[Tam]

Model X and S rather than Model 3 ...

Does this imply that high-class thieves don't like cheapo Model 3?

 

[Adopado]

Does this imply that high-class thieves don't like cheapo Model 3?

It implies that they (3 and Y) have a different and inherently more secure method of wireless communication system. The potential for breaching has only recently been demonstrated but as far as we know is not yet being actively used by criminals.

 

[Tam]

It implies that they (3 and Y) have a different and inherently more secure method of wireless communication system. The potential for breaching has only recently been demonstrated but as far as we know is not yet being actively used by criminals.

Prior to 2021 production, S and X use regular radio wave (non-BLE).

However, from 2021 production and later, all Tesla S, X, 3, and Y are now unified with the same technology BLE. That technology is what being demonstrated that researchers can do a relay attack too.

 

[kelvin 660]

I could imagine that with the right software that thieves would only need a couple of smart phones to make a relay attack. Potentially making this easier and cheaper than traditional attacks!
Hopefully, Tesla are working on a countermeasure for this issue...

 

[delta0]

I could imagine that with the right software that thieves would only need a couple of smart phones to make a relay attack. Potentially making this easier and cheaper than traditional attacks!
Hopefully, Tesla are working on a countermeasure for this issue...

I suspect the system would need to be more sophisticated as there are latency issues which would immediately get flagged by the security system. I’ve no doubt they will patch the system to make it more secure. Pin to drive seems like the best solution right now.

 

[Tam]

...patch...

It requires both software and hardware fix.

 

[WllXM]

It requires both software and hardware fix.

I would argue that surely a class-action threat could trigger Tesla to do a recall for that. After all they now have an insecure locking system in the car they’ve sold. Should be a warranty issue

 

[pgkevet]

How hard is it to have a simple keyfob that only switches on when you press it and turns off after a few milliseconds = n signal to piggyback?

 

[Overworked]

How hard is it to have a simple keyfob that only switches on when you press it and turns off after a few milliseconds = n signal to piggyback?

Be careful what you wish for!

 

[WllXM]

How hard is it to have a simple keyfob that only switches on when you press it and turns off after a few milliseconds = n signal to piggyback?

That would defeat the convenience of Keyless entry where you keep keys in a pocket or purse, developed over the last decade or so. But as always convenience is achieved through compromises on security. If there was a way of enabling/disabling that via a toggle on the car then why not, but I’ve never seen this afaik

 

[MrT3]

I would argue that surely a class-action threat could trigger Tesla to do a recall for that. After all they now have an insecure locking system in the car they’ve sold. Should be a warranty issue

Has Tesla stated it is unhackable and is therefore now not to spec? what about every other vehicle with smart keys sold in the last 20 years which are much easier to relay - should they all be recalled too?

What about all those old Ford vehicles in the 70s and 80s you could open with any other key or a screwdriver

 

[DrJFoster]

Has Tesla stated it is unhackable and is therefore now not to spec? what about every other vehicle with smart keys sold in the last 20 years which are much easier to relay - should they all be recalled too?

What about all those old Ford vehicles in the 70s and 80s you could open with any other key or a screwdriver

I think it used to be a half Tennis ball, over the lock and a sharp tap and the air being forced into the lock spun it open.

All these measures do is make it harder, which is no bad thing, they're already good enough to put off joy riders, but organized crime, stealing a Tesla to order, aren't going to be deterred, the last resort and they'll break in and if they need your phone or key card and pin number they'll find a way of enticing you to give it to them. I'm happy for the bar to be raised, but there's a tiny bit of me that says I'd prefer they got it without waking me up with physical threats. I just try and make my car harder than the next Tesla, I park behind gates at home, I have a steering discklock thing I use maybe 3 times a year in certain places, and after that I let my insurance company do the worrying.

 

[KennethS]

Has Tesla stated it is unhackable and is therefore now not to spec? what about every other vehicle with smart keys sold in the last 20 years which are much easier to relay - should they all be recalled too?

I completely agree and think this is being blown all out of proportion. If someone is worried about this new relay hack, which I am not, then don't pair a phone with the car as a key and use the supplied Key Cards. Keyless entry is a convenience feature that no one is being forced to enable. Unlike our Land Rover, for example, where relay attack has been around much longer yet there is no means of shutting it off.

 

[Adopado]

Prior to 2021 production, S and X use regular radio wave (non-BLE).

However, from 2021 production and later, all Tesla S, X, 3, and Y are now unified with the same technology BLE. That technology is what being demonstrated that researchers can do a relay attack too.

Indeed ... but I was making a clarification when responding to your post that said:

Prior to the implementation of pin-to-drive, relay attacks were actually quite popular to steal a Tesla.

My clarification was related to "prior to the implementation of pin-to-drive" ... when Tesla Model 3 (Y didn't exist) was not subject to the same issues so to say "relay attacks were actually quite popular to steal a Tesla" only applied to Model S and X. You have since also confirmed exactly what I was saying so we are actually in agreement! I may be mistaken but I thought the new BLE relay attack remains at the proof of concept level rather than a routine criminal approach as had been the case for Models S and X in the past.

 

[delta0]

Indeed ... but I was making a clarification when responding to your post that said:

My clarification was related to "prior to the implementation of pin-to-drive" ... when Tesla Model 3 (Y didn't exist) was not subject to the same issues so to say "relay attacks were actually quite popular to steal a Tesla" only applied to Model S and X. You have since also confirmed exactly what I was saying so we are actually in agreement! I may be mistaken but I thought the new BLE relay attack remains at the proof of concept level rather than a routine criminal approach as had been the case for Models S and X in the past.

The old attack against the S and X was a much more simple relay attack against the key. As the 3 and Y don’t use the same system unless you buy the key then a much more sophisticated attack seems to be needed. As Bjorn Nyland pointed out in his video about this, 3 and Y thefts are non existent. Pin to drive removes the relay risk entirely.

 

[12Pack]

. Pin to drive removes the relay risk entirely.

So if passive entry is disabled, and pin to drive is enabled, what vulnerabilities remain?

 

[Casss]

So if passive entry is disabled, and pin to drive is enabled, what vulnerabilities remain?

Only a threat then if they have access to your tesla registered email account to get around p2d. Currently the password reset from the pin to drive menu in the cars circumvents MFA (even if enabled in your online account AFAIK, but haven’t checked recently)… hopefully that gets changed soon. But frankly, if they have all of that then you’re in a world of hurt anyway.