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How to buy a used Model 3 with FSD?

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,267
11,615
Riverside Co. CA
Thanks for the info. Trying to buy online, so don't have access to the car. I'm wondering if in the original post pic, if one of the icons turns blue or something if FSD is enabled.

As I am sure you know, even if the car does have FSD on it there, there is no way to "guarantee" it will say with the vehicle purchased from any car dealership. The only way to guarantee FSD (or EAP) would stay with the vehicle, is to buy the car in a private party sale directly from the first owner, who shows you that its on the car, and that they paid for it in the first place.

Failing that, there is no other way to guarantee it stays with the car, even if it is there now, so if FSD is a "must" instead of a "nice to have" and one wants to buy used, you need to either buy private party from the original purchaser as I mentioned above, OR buy the car not factoring any software into the purchase price. Not "this is a good price for this car because it has FSD" but "this is a good price for this car without FSD, even if I see FSD active".

I believe you know all this though, you have been here too long and in these sections too long not to.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,180
2,720
Seattle, WA
As I am sure you know, even if the car does have FSD on it there, there is no way to "guarantee" it will say with the vehicle purchased from any car dealership. The only way to guarantee FSD (or EAP) would stay with the vehicle, is to buy the car in a private party sale directly from the first owner,
There is zero difference buying from a private party individual or non-Tesla dealership. If Tesla does not own it between the first buyer and you, the feature cannot be changed/removed. What is the situation where it can be removed because some non-Tesla dealer had it?
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,267
11,615
Riverside Co. CA
There is zero difference buying from a private party individual or non-Tesla dealership. If Tesla does not own it between the first buyer and you, the feature cannot be changed/removed. What is the situation where it can be removed because some non-Tesla dealer had it?

The difference is simply that if you are buying from a private party, its easier to see chain of custody. You can target cars where THEY were the first owner. With a dealership, you have zero idea where they got it from. You dont know if they got it from a person directly, or from auction and if from auction, did it or didnt it pass through tesla?

Only way to KNOW it didnt pass through tesla on a used vehicle is to buy it directly from the person who bought it from tesla. Thats the difference.
 
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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,180
2,720
Seattle, WA
Only way to KNOW it didnt pass through tesla on a used vehicle is to buy it directly from the person who bought it from tesla. Thats the difference.
Interesting legal situation- Tesla sold the car on with the feature enabled (because it still shows and works on the car) but then removes it in the future when it's in the hands of another owner after the title has been transferred? Seems like a pretty clear violation of first sale doctrine. I can't sell you a car and then go "whoops, I meant to take this engine out before I sold it..." You have the responsibility to verify what you are selling is in the condition in which you want it sold.

What an insane world in which the configuration and value of a car cannot be determined from physically looking at and testing the car.
 
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jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,267
11,615
Riverside Co. CA
Interesting legal situation- Tesla sold the car on with the feature enabled (because it still shows and works on the car) but then removes it in the future when it's in the hands of another owner after the title has been transferred? Seems like a pretty clear violation of first sale doctrine. I can't sell you a car and then go "whoops, I meant to take this engine out before I sold it..." You have the responsibility to verify what you are selling is in the condition in which you want it sold.

What an insane world in which the configuration and value of a car cannot be determined from physically looking at and testing the car.

In the situation I am describing (which has happened to many people)


Person buys car from tesla, then sells the car back to tesla "later" Tesla is the owner of the car when its traded back into them, and turns off FSD on the vehicle OTA. That doesnt happen for some reason on the vehicle.

Tesla sells car to auction, "some dealer" buys vehicle, advertises it for sale, person looks at it, sees "oh wow this car has FSD" (whether dealer advertises it with FSD or not). Person buys car, during ownership transfer, tesla "corrects the mistake" of the FSD not being removed when it was in their hands in the first place. Person screams bloody murder, and posts everywhere (including here) that "Tesla removed my FSD", they were not entitled to do [email protected]#!#@#[email protected]#! (even though the car passed through tesla hands and they were entitled to do that, it just took a while.

The above situation can happen if the original purchaser bought FSD. It can also happen if the person just "HAS" FSD but never purchased it. That has happened too (people having FSD but never buying it, the free trial never expiring and the person trading the car in "as is" as all cars are, and FSD is on it then, but never paid for.

Anyway, the point I was making is, there is NO WAY to know the chain of custody of a car purchased on a third party lot, so it doesnt matter what software feature is there or not, if one is buying such a car they should price it as if it doesnt have FSD, because they dont know if it will stay, and there is no way to find out if the car ever passed through tesla before you buy it that I am aware of (I am not a car dealer though).

You asked me what the difference was, so thats why I am spelling it out. If you buy from someone who bought it from tesla directly (new), and they can show you they purchased FSD, then you have certainty it will stay there. Other than that, there isnt any other way I am aware of to get that.

Dancar knows all this though, I am virtually certain, so this is just another "Im bored lets have a discussion" thread, most likely.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,180
2,720
Seattle, WA
I appreciate all of that. As I said "What an insane world in which the configuration and value of a car cannot be determined from physically looking at and testing the car."

I bet you'd win a legal case where Tesla didn't remove FSD before it left their legal ownership and then pulled it later. Just because it has happened, doesn't mean it's legal or part of the contract (and in the cases where it did that I have read, they made it right). But the fact you have to worry about this buying a used Tesla is nuts. They have such a hostile attitude towards customers once they have made the initial sale.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,267
11,615
Riverside Co. CA
I appreciate all of that. As I said "What an insane world in which the configuration and value of a car cannot be determined from physically looking at and testing the car."

I bet you'd win a legal case where Tesla didn't remove FSD before it left their legal ownership and then pulled it later. Just because it has happened, doesn't mean it's legal or part of the contract (and in the cases where it did that I have read, they made it right). But the fact you have to worry about this buying a used Tesla is nuts. They have such a hostile attitude towards customers once they have made the initial sale.

its this "XXXX as a service" world we now live in. I personally dont have as much of an issue with tesla turning off supercharging on salvage cars as I do with them "turning off" FSD in this manner. I think its ridiculous, personally, that a person cant look at a used car (which is, in general, purchased "as is") and not have the car be "as is" when you buy it.

Premium connectivity, or "free unlimited supercharging" are different in my book, than FSD, but it appears that tesla considers them all "as a service". It should either stay with the person, or with the vehicle, but it doesnt stay with the person, ever, and doesnt stay with the vehicle, in some circumstances. I am certainly not saying its "right" just what it is atm.

In teslas perfect world, everyone would likely be subscribing to FSD at whatever they charge per month on a permanent basis, with them marketing that as "it stays with you!" or something. shrug...
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,952
2,062
Orange County, CA
Interesting legal situation- Tesla sold the car on with the feature enabled (because it still shows and works on the car) but then removes it in the future when it's in the hands of another owner after the title has been transferred? Seems like a pretty clear violation of first sale doctrine. I can't sell you a car and then go "whoops, I meant to take this engine out before I sold it..." You have the responsibility to verify what you are selling is in the condition in which you want it sold.

What an insane world in which the configuration and value of a car cannot be determined from physically looking at and testing the car.
Sigh. Tesla cannot remove FSD or FUSC from vehicles in a private party sale. Fact.
Tesla cannot remove FSD or FUSC from used vehicles that were not in Tesla's possession. (Generally, traded in cars. The best are sold as used by Tesla, the rest auctioned off to dealers.)

I know you love to muse about the law, but apparently you are unaware of what facts gives Tesla the right to disable a function sold to the original party.

So knowing the providence of the car is mandatory for buying from dealercritters. Most are probably from auctions, and many of those from trade-ins TO Tesla.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,180
2,720
Seattle, WA
I know you love to muse about the law, but apparently you are unaware of what facts gives Tesla the right to disable a function sold to the original party.
We are 100% in agreement. If you think we're not, you haven't read all I wrote or I wrote it badly. At no point do I argue Tesla can take things away from 3rd parties? What I was responding to was this, and how crazy it is that we think of it as normal in the Tesla world and need to warn people about it:

Person buys car from tesla, then sells the car back to tesla "later" Tesla is the owner of the car when its traded back into them, and turns off FSD on the vehicle OTA. That doesnt happen for some reason on the vehicle.

Tesla sells car to auction, "some dealer" buys vehicle, advertises it for sale, person looks at it, sees "oh wow this car has FSD" (whether dealer advertises it with FSD or not). Person buys car, during ownership transfer, tesla "corrects the mistake" of the FSD not being removed when it was in their hands in the first place. Person screams bloody murder, and posts everywhere (including here) that "Tesla removed my FSD", they were not entitled to do [email protected]#!#@#[email protected]#! (even though the car passed through tesla hands and they were entitled to do that, it just took a while.

However, the fact remains that Tesla HAS removed FSD from cars that are in 3rd party hands. Yes, it was in Tesla's hands at some point, but they sell it on with FSD listed on the screen as part of the config of the car, and it's functional. Only later, during an audit, do they find that they meant to remove it, and do so remotely, when someone else now owns the car.

This has happened. Repeatedly.

And like I said, it's not legal, right?

How else are you supposed to verify the configuration of a car than to directly inspect it at the point of sale? If Tesla transfers ownership to a 3rd party, and FSD is functional at that moment, it must stay functional, right? (absent some other obvious agreement between Tesla and the buyer). What argument can Tesla make that it was just a simple mistake and thus they don't need to make it right (damages, unwind sale, put FSD on the car)?
 
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rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,952
2,062
Orange County, CA
We are 100% in agreement. If you think we're not, you haven't read all I wrote or I wrote it badly. At no point do I argue Tesla can take things away from 3rd parties? What I was responding to was this, and how crazy it is that we think of it as normal in the Tesla world and need to warn people about it:



However, the fact remains that Tesla HAS removed FSD from cars that are in 3rd party hands. Yes, it was in Tesla's hands at some point, but they sell it on with FSD listed on the screen as part of the config of the car, and it's functional. Only later, during an audit, do they find that they meant to remove it, and do so remotely, when someone else now owns the car.

This has happened. Repeatedly.

And like I said, it's not legal, right?

How else are you supposed to verify the configuration of a car than to directly inspect it at the point of sale? If Tesla transfers ownership to a 3rd party, and FSD is functional at that moment, it must stay functional, right? (absent some other obvious agreement between Tesla and the buyer).
Tesla's opportunity to disable features is when it's in their possession. I agree that if it's being done after multiple sales transactions (Tesla to auction->auction to dealer->dealer to consumer), in my semi-informed opinion, that is actionable, potentially as a tort claim of conversion.

And a court would reasonbly ask Tesla, "so you had the car as a trade-in, why did you not remove the feature(s) then, when you owned it?" I can't see Tesla having the right answer.

Using retroactive auditing to arbitrarily shut off items that existed at the sale (to the buyer from the TP dealer) and/or on the Monroney sticker is not supportable under any theory of law that I can think of.

But I specialize in law not remotely related to these consumer contractual/rights issues. ;)
 

ThomasD

Active Member
Nov 22, 2019
1,118
486
Breckenridge Co Ky
Just because Tesla takes possession of the car doesn't mean they own it. Do they retitle the vehicle in their name or do they leave it in the name of the previous owner? So when they do a title transfer to the new owner is it Tesla's name on the title.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,952
2,062
Orange County, CA
Just because Tesla takes possession of the car doesn't mean they own it. Do they retitle the vehicle in their name or do they leave it in the name of the previous owner? So when they do a title transfer to the new owner is it Tesla's name on the title.
So you're proffering that the original owner is still the owner through the end of the auction, and that Tesla is like a valet you handed the keys to? (Bailment is the legal term, but I don't believe that works.) Who, other than Tesla to obtain ownership, pays off any loan or lease fees attributable to the previous owner?

If you look at a Carfax, transfers must be recorded to indicate the owner of record, so you'll typically see one or two transactions between the consumer owners. When you trade in your Tesla, can you come back tomorrow and say, "hey, I want my trade-in back, since I still own it?" Do you not fill out DMV paperwork during the trade-in transaction? To notify the DMV that someone has "possession" but they aren't the registered nor legal owner? Or my favorite: find your traded in car on the lot and use your Tesla card key to take it from their lot. You see how absurd that is?

I can't find any references where a car trade-in is a mere bailment. Please provide such. I love to learn more of those arcane areas of the law.
 

gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,180
2,720
Seattle, WA
Pretty sure in most states the dealer (Tesla) takes the Title, and you sign it over to them. They legally possess the title and thus the vehicle.
As a dealer, they are not required to register this transaction with the state nor register the car. But this doesn't make the car any less theirs than it does selling it to a private individual during the time period when they haven't registered with the state either.
If you sell a car via consignment, you retain the title until the sale does (or doesn't) occur.
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,952
2,062
Orange County, CA
Pretty sure in most states the dealer (Tesla) takes the Title, and you sign it over to them. They legally possess the title and thus the vehicle.
As a dealer, they are not required to register this transaction with the state nor register the car. But this doesn't make the car any less theirs than it does selling it to a private individual during the time period when they haven't registered with the state either.
If you sell a car via consignment, you retain the title until the sale does (or doesn't) occur.
Let's agree that Tesla should do the downgrade prior to selling to auction.
 
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DanCar

Active Member
Oct 2, 2013
2,015
1,764
SF Bay Area
I tried the suggestion in this video without luck for a few weeks. Tesla's on Vroom sell out in minutes was the biggest issue. I ended up buying from a private party locally from craigslist.
 

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