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How to do a load calculation for adding a Tesla wall charger circuit to my sub panel

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Does that ( 2020 NEC ) mean that my existing MLO Panel distribution setup will be treated as "new installation" if I derate existing breakers and and add a new breaker in that panel to use freed up capacity , as I am planning to do ?
Will this approach be code compliant If I install a new 200 amp panel in the garage and install a new 200 amp OCPD in the outside MLO panel to feed this panel. Remove both existing 100 amp load OPCD which leaves only the solar back feed OCPD there together with this new 200 amp OCPD. Then, from this new 200 amp panel - feed the garage sub panel on a 90 amp OCPD , AC Circuit on a 70 amp OCPD and wall charger circuit on a 40 amp OCPD.
If you are looking at adding or replacing panels, you’ve got lots of options.

One of your problems is that your main 200A panel has no panel breaker. The two 100A breakers are the panel protection. If you replaced or modified that main panel and had a 200A panel breaker, then you could keep your two 100A feed breakers and add in a 60A EVSE breaker onto this main panel.

But realize that 200A breakers are typically much bigger than a 100A breaker. They don’t fit into the same slots. You are getting outside DIY territory here…
 
Does that ( 2020 NEC ) mean that my existing MLO Panel distribution setup will be treated as "new installation" if I derate existing breakers and and add a new breaker in that panel to use freed up capacity , as I am planning to do ?
That would depend on the AHJ (building department, inspector), but I would expect the only things you could do to it would be (a) change to only one breaker in the panel to comply with the new rules or (b) remove a breaker or replace a breaker with one that is no larger than currently. Anything else would be making the existing non-compliance greater. But if there are 125A branch breakers for that panel, you might get the building department to let you change the 100/100 load breakers to 70/125. I don't think I would approve that if it were my decision.

Will this approach be code compliant If I install a new 200 amp panel in the garage and install a new 200 amp OCPD in the outside MLO panel to feed this panel.
If there are 200A branch OCPD listed for that panel, and that's the only OCPD in the panel, that's fine; you'd have to move the solar breaker, which has its own implications. But I'm a bit doubtful they exist. You posted a blurry picture of the panel label in the other forum; if you post a clearer picture that allows all the fine print to be read, that might yield some relevant information.

Cheers, Wayne
 
How much driving do you do? Most people can get by with a 30A/240V breaker for charging. Many could even get by with a 20A/240V if their commute isn’t very long. Yes, it is always nicer to have the fastest charging possible. Indeed the other day, due to a variety of circumstances, I had four hours to juice up from 60% battery to 100% battery, and my 60A breaker EVSE did the job. But that was a once every three years kind of thing, and the backup plan would have been to stop at a supercharger once for a few minutes for that trip. Hardly a disaster or much of an inconvenience.
I don't have scope for even 20amp ( continuous ) either on my 100 amp sub panel or 100 amp ac load circuit despite 200 amp service, due to the unique situation of my home electrical setup. I explained it above in my post.
Some rejig is required and hence my quest to educate myself of all possible options. I did consult electricians before hitting the forum and I am aghast to get so inaccurate assessments, like adding 40 amp circuit to a 100 amp panel which is already showing 78amp load per load calculation or add new load to MLO service panel just because it has physical space.
I trust more people in such forum, like @wwhitney , who have been providing very accurate and valuable suggestions.
 
I don't have scope for even 20amp ( continuous ) either on my 100 amp sub panel or 100 amp ac load circuit despite 200 amp service, due to the unique situation of my home electrical setup. I explained it above in my post.
Some rejig is required and hence my quest to educate myself of all possible options. I did consult electricians before hitting the forum and I am aghast to get so inaccurate assessments, like adding 40 amp circuit to a 100 amp panel which is already showing 78amp load per load calculation or add new load to MLO service panel just because it has physical space.
I trust more people in such forum, like @wwhitney , who have been providing very accurate and valuable suggestions.
There are rumors of an upcoming load sensing add on for the wall connector which may help in situations like yours.
 
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I don't have scope for even 20amp ( continuous ) either on my 100 amp sub panel or 100 amp ac load circuit
You do on the 100A A/C circuit. The calculated load comes out to 66A, giving you 34A of headroom. You can add a 30A circuit and install an EVSE set to 24A continuous.

How to add that 30A circuit is a bit unclear, since I think you said the 100A breaker supplies conductors that go directly to a junction box, which the connects to two nearby (presumably fused) disconnects for the two A/C units. Your options would depend on the size and insulation rating of those conductors, as well as the distance involved from MLO service panel to junction box and from both to your EVSE location. You might need to set a new 100A panel, move the A/C unit supply to it on a 70A breaker, and run a 100A feeder from that A/C 100A breaker to your new 100A panel.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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That would depend on the AHJ (building department, inspector), but I would expect the only things you could do to it would be (a) change to only one breaker in the panel to comply with the new rules or (b) remove a breaker or replace a breaker with one that is no larger than currently. Anything else would be making the existing non-compliance greater. But if there are 125A branch breakers for that panel, you might get the building department to let you change the 100/100 load breakers to 70/125. I don't think I would approve that if it were my decision.


If there are 200A branch OCPD listed for that panel, and that's the only OCPD in the panel, that's fine; you'd have to move the solar breaker, which has its own implications. But I'm a bit doubtful they exist. You posted a blurry picture of the panel label in the other forum; if you post a clearer picture that allows all the fine print to be read, that might yield some relevant information.

Cheers, Wayne
Hello Wayne,
Thanks a lot for your continued help. I was looking to share the additional information on the other forum but couldn't do so as the thread was closed.
I am sharing clear pictures of both the main and garage panels , as well as a spreadsheet having details of garage panel circuit with load calculation.
The option to add any new circuit to the garage panel is pretty much ruled out as per this load calculation, unless you suggest otherwise.

I was considering to derate ( at the main panel ) the garage panel OCPD to 90 amps and ac load circuit to 70 amps. Then add a new 40 amp OCPD at the main panel and connect it to the wall charger which is located right across the main panel on the garage wall. But I think you ruled out this option due to NEC 2020 sec 230.71 (B). Am I right in this understanding ? Will this setup not count as "existing install" to escape NEC 2020 and be allowed under "six service disconnects" rule ?

The other option in my mind is to install a new 200 amp breaker sub panel in the garage on the wall across the main outside panel. Remove both the 100 amp load circuit breakers from the main panel , install a 200 amp OCPD there and leave 50 amp back feed OCPD for the solar as is. Connect new sub panel to 200 amp OCPD. Then, install a 90amp OCPD on this new sub panel to feed the existing garage sub panel, a 70 amp OCPD to existing AC load circuits and a 40 amp OCPD for the new wall charger. Due to the location of this new panel right across outside main panel, moving the existing circuits should be simple and not cost a fortune.

But I felt you have doubts about this setup too as you were suggesting something about moving solar back feed to the new sub panel. I am looking to avoid this scenario because it will require Tesla solar involvement and they will take months to do anything they are asked to do. Can I request you to dwell upon bit more on what could be wrong with this setup ?
 

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OK, that photo is clear enough to read the label. The model number is apparently very old as googling it turns up nothing. The label also doesn't explicitly say what type of breaker to use, or what the max breaker size is. It says MAINS 200 AMP MAX, but is that referring just to the bus rating, or does it mean a 200A breaker is available for that bus?

So based on the age and the potential difficulties of modifying it, replacing that with a new meter/disconnect (just one 200A breaker, no other breakers or buses) is a good option, on a technical basis. The downside is that you'd have to get PG&E involved to shut off the power, and so it would be expensive. If you choose this route, then your options are the same as option A below.

If you aren't replacing it, then the question is whether you or your electrician can track down what breakers that panel can take, whether they are available, and whether there is a 200A option. If you can get a 200A breaker, option A is to take out all the breakers and stick in one 200A breaker. That would comply with 230.71(B) (yes, that's the relevant limitation here).

Then you run a 200A feeder to a splice area (which could be a separate enclosure, or could be the top of your garage panel if that's nearby). There the 50A PV conductors are spliced to the 200A feeder; depending on where those PV conductors originate and how they are protected there, you might need to set a 50A OCPD nearby to protect them. Then your garage panel (which you said has a 200A bus already) would get a 200A main breaker and be supplied by that 200A feeder. The feeder for the A/C units would be resupplied by a new breaker in the garage panel.

That would let you combine all your loads into a single 200A supply, rather than dealing with how it is currently split into (2) 100A supplies. The optional load calc would apply to the 200A feeder. You should have enough headroom on that calc to add a 40A or 50A circuit to the garage panel to supply your new EVSE. Also, moving the 50A feeder to/from the PV doesn't require Tesla; any sufficiently knowledgeable electrician can do that. [Getting them to properly update the location of the red labels might be a bit tricky, but then again Tesla wasn't careful with their labels anyway, as the "do not add loads" label on the service panel demonstrates.]

If you aren't replacing the service panel, and you are stuck with the (2) 100A breakers because of the limits of that panel or available breaker options, your best choice by far is the one I described of putting a 30A EVSE circuit on the 100A breaker presently supplying your A/C. Again, the details of that solution would depend on how everything downstream of that breaker is wired. I think you have provided the layout of that, but not the wire sizes or lengths.

Cheers, Wayne
 
If you are looking at adding or replacing panels, you’ve got lots of options.

One of your problems is that your main 200A panel has no panel breaker. The two 100A breakers are the panel protection. If you replaced or modified that main panel and had a 200A panel breaker, then you could keep your two 100A feed breakers and add in a 60A EVSE breaker onto this main panel.

But realize that 200A breakers are typically much bigger than a 100A breaker. They don’t fit into the same slots. You are getting outside DIY territory here…
I missed to read this suggestion , which was later advised by @wwhitney too.
I think I will bite the bullet and go for replacing my old main MLO service panel with a new 200 amp main breaker panel , may be like this one, which can support solar back feed too. Making any code compliant addition to the old panel seems difficult and won't save much money either. It will involve PG&E as well as Tesla Solar, but that's unavoidable I guess.
Time to pick a good electrician to execute the project.
Thanks everyone for your help.
 
I missed to read this suggestion , which was later advised by @wwhitney too.
I think I will bite the bullet and go for replacing my old main MLO service panel with a new 200 amp main breaker panel , may be like this one, which can support solar back feed too. Making any code compliant addition to the old panel seems difficult and won't save much money either. It will involve PG&E as well as Tesla Solar, but that's unavoidable I guess.
Time to pick a good electrician to execute the project.
Thanks everyone for your help.
It’s actually nice to rationalize an electric set up. My house had a crazy patchwork of panels hanging off a badly configured split 200/150A panel. I upgraded to a much more sane 400A main panel. it was a 2 day job in my case for the electricians (yours will go much more quickly), but it was worth it.
 
OK, that photo is clear enough to read the label. The model number is apparently very old as googling it turns up nothing. The label also doesn't explicitly say what type of breaker to use, or what the max breaker size is. It says MAINS 200 AMP MAX, but is that referring just to the bus rating, or does it mean a 200A breaker is available for that bus?

So based on the age and the potential difficulties of modifying it, replacing that with a new meter/disconnect (just one 200A breaker, no other breakers or buses) is a good option, on a technical basis. The downside is that you'd have to get PG&E involved to shut off the power, and so it would be expensive. If you choose this route, then your options are the same as option A below.

If you aren't replacing it, then the question is whether you or your electrician can track down what breakers that panel can take, whether they are available, and whether there is a 200A option. If you can get a 200A breaker, option A is to take out all the breakers and stick in one 200A breaker. That would comply with 230.71(B) (yes, that's the relevant limitation here).

Then you run a 200A feeder to a splice area (which could be a separate enclosure, or could be the top of your garage panel if that's nearby). There the 50A PV conductors are spliced to the 200A feeder; depending on where those PV conductors originate and how they are protected there, you might need to set a 50A OCPD nearby to protect them. Then your garage panel (which you said has a 200A bus already) would get a 200A main breaker and be supplied by that 200A feeder. The feeder for the A/C units would be resupplied by a new breaker in the garage panel.

That would let you combine all your loads into a single 200A supply, rather than dealing with how it is currently split into (2) 100A supplies. The optional load calc would apply to the 200A feeder. You should have enough headroom on that calc to add a 40A or 50A circuit to the garage panel to supply your new EVSE. Also, moving the 50A feeder to/from the PV doesn't require Tesla; any sufficiently knowledgeable electrician can do that. [Getting them to properly update the location of the red labels might be a bit tricky, but then again Tesla wasn't careful with their labels anyway, as the "do not add loads" label on the service panel demonstrates.]

If you aren't replacing the service panel, and you are stuck with the (2) 100A breakers because of the limits of that panel or available breaker options, your best choice by far is the one I described of putting a 30A EVSE circuit on the 100A breaker presently supplying your A/C. Again, the details of that solution would depend on how everything downstream of that breaker is wired. I think you have provided the layout of that, but not the wire sizes or lengths.

Cheers, Wayne
I thought I was done requesting advice on my project and ready to execute, but here I am back again.
I hired an electrician for the project and he came up with an interesting advice, which I tried to capture in this enclosed line diagram.
He reconfirmed the calculation that you kindly did for me for the AC circuit and came up with the load of 66 amp for these two existing ACs on 100 amp feed. But when he did the load calculation again with new 32 amp Charger load added to the AC Circuit, he computed the load for all the three loads at name plate rating ( RLA 28.1 amp + FLA 1.4 amp at 230V ) for condensers and configured load of 32 amp / 240V for the charger and then applied 25% demand factor to the largest load in the group , which is the charger. This way, the total load is 98 amp and so can be supported on 100 amp AC feed from the main panel without altering anything on that panel.

This option involves installing a sub panel , but avoids any service shutdown or main panel upgrade or involve Tesla Solar - which is a big positive. Additionally, oversizing the panel and the wire for the charger provides scope for future upgrade.

Can I request you to take a look at this diagram and validate if it complies with the code ? Thanks
 

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Three questions and a comment:

1) Does one have to re-rate a 200 amp service by 80%, or is the calculated load allowed to reach the service rating?
2) Does one have to re-rate a sub-panel by 80%, or....
3) When adding load (I used the methods linked by "Sophias-Dad") loads, it feels like I add the plated load equivalent for an EVSE. Ergo 48 amps for a WC. Is that correct?

Comment: 3 VA per Sq for general lighting? That's crazy amount of power going to lighting. Absolutely unrealistic.
 
1) I believe you can reach(for load calculations) the service rating)
2) The subpanel, its feeder breaker, and the feeding lines to the subpanel must be sized to handle the load expected on it. If it's only handling EV chargers, then you need to oversize all of the above accordingly. If its going to have lots of other breakers that will be used intermittently, then you still pretty much consider the EV charger as 25% more than its expected(48 amps typically, or a 60 amp load).
3) It appears they count EV chargers at 75% of their rating(48*240=11520, or 8640 after 75%) in the first method, and essentially 40% of their rating for the second method(assuming you will always reach past the 10000va level). I'd argue that an EV charger belongs in the 'count it as a 100% load, since it will run more frequently and continuously than AC or heat, but method two clearly has it NOT in that category.

Regarding the 3va per sq ft, remember that this link was from the 2011 NEC and LED lighting was not quite as prevalent then. They also are probably accounting for the fact that some people won't transition off incandescents until the government dictates they stop being sold(currently slated for July 2023 in the US) and then the NEC will probably have to wait 10+ years for their usage to become uncommon. So maybe by 2033 you'll be able to dial that back to 0.5va per sq ft, which is still pretty high even for LED lighting, but the NEC can't use the 'average' user in its calculation, they need to use the worst-realistic-case user.

As @mongo points out, the 3va also includes general use of outlets. The NEC can't predict whether your 200 sq ft living room will have a 680 watt 58" plasma television from 2008 in it, but they clearly err on the side of safety.
 
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Three questions and a comment:

1) Does one have to re-rate a 200 amp service by 80%, or is the calculated load allowed to reach the service rating?
2) Does one have to re-rate a sub-panel by 80%, or....
3) When adding load (I used the methods linked by "Sophias-Dad") loads, it feels like I add the plated load equivalent for an EVSE. Ergo 48 amps for a WC. Is that correct?

Comment: 3 VA per Sq for general lighting? That's crazy amount of power going to lighting. Absolutely unrealistic.
I'm not an electrician, but I'm awake/ online

1) nope, loads get upsized
2) same as 1)
3) should be added as 125% of charge rate, EVSE are considered continuous, from the link you are using: Specific appliances or loads "These must be included in the load calculation at their full value."

3VA is for general usage including all non-major appliances. LED lighting and LCD TVs are less power hungry, but gaming computers are more.

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