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The big then question is, would you be happy to just sit there and not pay attention while it wafts you along at 70 mph+ down the motorway with all the usual assholes surrounding you? I certainly wouldn't, which is why EAP is such a good compromise i.e. it basically drives itself and your job is to bail it out when it gets it wrong (or end up as another news headline if you don't!). Without the human back-up it's going to kill you sooner or later IMHO. So for me FSD is pretty much dead in the water for the foreseeable future.

Well, if it can't convince both me and relevant regulators that it can do that then it's not a product. But if you think it can't be done, then there's lots of people who disagree with you - what Tesla are trying to do is different only in details from what Google, GM etc are also trying to do. Those details will influence who gets there first, but the trust hurdle is exactly the same.

Of course you are right that there's a public confidence issue to be overcome with the early adopters (and on my first ride I'd be paying attention like never before!), but the "usual assholes" have a good chance of killing me even if I'm driving manually.
 
Well, if it can't convince both me and relevant regulators that it can do that then it's not a product. But if you think it can't be done, then there's lots of people who disagree with you

Well there are also a lot of people in the industry who agree with me too! It's a very big industry wide debate. I didn't say it couldn't be done, just not in the next year or two which would be relevant for purchasing it right now. Tesla once thought FSD could be done last year or even the year before, but obviously it couldn't. I don't think FSD is going to be a thing this year or next unless you count token gesture sub-features, whatever those might be. I really don't think hands off driving is coming anytime soon, but more than happy to be proven wrong.

FSD is the holy grail that everyone is chasing, but it's proving much harder than any of them thought to bring it into the consumer market. If I had to guess, I'd say it will be another decade before FSD is a genuine product, although semi-autonomous systems should improve dramatically over the next few years. EAP is already pretty impressive in simple road scenarios, actually the kind of mundane driving that you would definitely want to be automated. Maybe they would be better working on a more sophisticated driver detection system rather than FSD, since most complaints with EAP revolve around the constant nagging. Relying only on a torque sensor for driver detection is a bit of a bodge IMHO. Of course this wouldn't matter if true failsafe FSD was available, but that really is a pipe dream for today!
 
I don't think FSD is going to be a thing this year or next unless you count token gesture sub-features,

I largely agree with you - the path to true FSD will be long, and we’re really only guessing if we try to say exactly how long, but it certainly won't be done and dusted by next year. More interesting is what the intermediate stops are along the way.

I’m not convinced there’s much scope for further improvement to autopilot type assistance. Already we have the nag problem: if you need to intervene every minute or two then you naturally remain alert, if it’s only needed at intervals of tens of minutes the temptation to lose concentration is too great and you need to be nagged. If it improves further to needing intervention only occasionally (maybe a regular commute on a well-mapped piece of motorway normally works without intervention), you not only have the problem of people tempted to break the rules, you also have the issue that even drivers who diligently monitor the AP have so little practice in intervening that they will get it wrong when called to do so.

So one approach is to stop at the current level of AP and wait a few years until FSD is fully baked. You might argue that’s the best way, but it’s pretty clear Tesla aren't going to do that.

Your suggestion that more effort should be put into monitoring systems is an interesting one - I think there's not only scope for better nag systems but also improvements in the whole intervention process. However, Tesla would probably say that this would be effort wasted in the long run and better to crack on with FSD.

So if the progress to FSD is incremental, where is the next step?

Tesla have been talking lately about on-ramp-to-offramp. It's not clear that they are actually talking about making that unmonitored: the only concrete thing they have mentioned is automatic lane changing. Automatic lane-changing just as an adjunct to existing AP is fairly useless and arguably a backwards step: telling the car to change lanes is one of the few things left to keep the driver engaged if the existing AP (lane following, TACC) is working well. However, it is something that's needed for the whole system, and one of the things that's perceived as a 'thinking' problem rather than a straightforward algorithm, so they may choose to showcase it in that way just to show progress.

In some ways it would seem easier to introduce the unmonitored capability from the other end. More complete versions of summon/parking should be some of the easiest to make safe. City driving at low speeds, though much more tricky in terms of the environment, has the advantage that it's lower risk: with AEB fairly effective at low speeds, the downside of getting FSD wrong is likely to be people honking at you and minor fender-benders, while getting it wrong at high speed probably leads to fatalities. Also at low speeds in traffic the car can simply stop where it is and say "sorry, I can't do this", waiting for the sleeping driver to wake up and take over, while at highway speeds it's got to cope with at least pulling over and probably driving for a considerable distance before it can do so if an insoluble situation pops up.
 
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Good post @arg

the only concrete thing they have mentioned is automatic lane changing. Automatic lane-changing just as an adjunct to existing AP is fairly useless

Aside from your "driver engaged, or not?" comment I'd like an auto-change-lanes feature.

Change lanes doesn't work well enough currently Maybe Ap2 has become very slick (it certain was no better than AP1 last time I asked).

I signal and sometimes AP moves almost immediately. Sometimes never (or I give up before it decides) but in a significant number of cases it is "too slow". My definition of "too slow" is that I signal and car does not move by the time I would have done and there are cars around me who will be contused by "signalling, not moving" so I override manualloy.

The other issue is the distance from car I am approaching at which TACC decides to slow down. TACC starts slowing down much further away than I would have chosen to change lanes,a nd I have found it impossible to "guess when".,Consequently TACC is slowing down before I signal, and then traffic that was at a safe distance is getting closer and/or inconvenienced (e.g. having to brake). So auto-change-lanes would (if done well :rolleyes:) improve on those issues.
 
I largely agree with you - the path to true FSD will be long, and we’re really only guessing if we try to say exactly how long, but it certainly won't be done and dusted by next year. More interesting is what the intermediate stops are along the way.

I’m not convinced there’s much scope for further improvement to autopilot type assistance. Already we have the nag problem: if you need to intervene every minute or two then you naturally remain alert, if it’s only needed at intervals of tens of minutes the temptation to lose concentration is too great and you need to be nagged. If it improves further to needing intervention only occasionally (maybe a regular commute on a well-mapped piece of motorway normally works without intervention), you not only have the problem of people tempted to break the rules, you also have the issue that even drivers who diligently monitor the AP have so little practice in intervening that they will get it wrong when called to do so.

So one approach is to stop at the current level of AP and wait a few years until FSD is fully baked. You might argue that’s the best way, but it’s pretty clear Tesla aren't going to do that.

Your suggestion that more effort should be put into monitoring systems is an interesting one - I think there's not only scope for better nag systems but also improvements in the whole intervention process. However, Tesla would probably say that this would be effort wasted in the long run and better to crack on with FSD.

So if the progress to FSD is incremental, where is the next step?

Tesla have been talking lately about on-ramp-to-offramp. It's not clear that they are actually talking about making that unmonitored: the only concrete thing they have mentioned is automatic lane changing. Automatic lane-changing just as an adjunct to existing AP is fairly useless and arguably a backwards step: telling the car to change lanes is one of the few things left to keep the driver engaged if the existing AP (lane following, TACC) is working well. However, it is something that's needed for the whole system, and one of the things that's perceived as a 'thinking' problem rather than a straightforward algorithm, so they may choose to showcase it in that way just to show progress.

In some ways it would seem easier to introduce the unmonitored capability from the other end. More complete versions of summon/parking should be some of the easiest to make safe. City driving at low speeds, though much more tricky in terms of the environment, has the advantage that it's lower risk: with AEB fairly effective at low speeds, the downside of getting FSD wrong is likely to be people honking at you and minor fender-benders, while getting it wrong at high speed probably leads to fatalities. Also at low speeds in traffic the car can simply stop where it is and say "sorry, I can't do this", waiting for the sleeping driver to wake up and take over, while at highway speeds it's got to cope with at least pulling over and probably driving for a considerable distance before it can do so if an insoluble situation pops up.

The problem I see with current nagging is that it often nags you when you are paying attention and holding the wheel. Would be better to have a combination of eye detection, torque detection and simple touch sensors on the wheel. This would greatly reduce false nagging while still requiring an alert driver holding the wheel. At the moment it often nags you when you are holding the wheel with two hands and looking out of the front, which can be slightly irritating.

On ramp to off ramp automation I couldn't care less about. Auto lane changing I don't understand either. The last thing I want is a car that changes lanes whenever it sees fit (unless it really has true failsafe FSD). The current indicate to change lanes is just fine, but could be refined further. More intelligent summon could be useful, like properly manoevring out of the garage and parking in a specific spot on the driveway.

I'm not sure city driving is necessarily lower risk for FSD! Might run over a few peds (like the Uber did recently), cyclists etc or run head on into a bus/truck if FSD gets a bit confused. If FSD missed the odd red light or school crossing it might not end very well either. IMHO FSD is not going to happen in a busy city environment any time soon, unless in a very restricted, highly controlled area set up specifically for it without the likes of taxis and delivery vans battling for road supremacy!
 
At the moment it often nags you when you are holding the wheel with two hands and looking out of the front, which can be slightly irritating.

FWIW I don't get that, but I only hold the wheel with one hand, at 4 O'Clock, which provides rotational torque. but I have read of plenty of people who cannot get nag-free, even with hand-on-wheel, so may also be a sensor issue / similar.
 
FWIW I don't get that, but I only hold the wheel with one hand, at 4 O'Clock, which provides rotational torque. but I have read of plenty of people who cannot get nag-free, even with hand-on-wheel, so may also be a sensor issue / similar.

No my sensor is fine. If I hold it with one hand or just gently move the wheel it easily provides enough torque to cancel the nag. But if I'm driving in a straight line on the motorway with two hands on the wheel, then there is basically zero net torque on the wheel unless I counter steer a little deliberately (which is what I find can be irritating as it's not really what you want to be doing all the time). So it kind of pushes you toward holding with one hand, which I can live with but it's not their intended solution i.e. 2 hands firmly on the wheel.