How to sue Tesla over historical claims

[gearchruncher]

But appears the first law firm I posted is looking for clients as part of a class action. Was wondering the benefit of "signing up" with them? In other random class actions, I've simply...been included automatically

They are looking for lead members / class representatives. Class actions require at least one member who has the specific claim that is being sued for, and acts like the plaintiff for all members. They'll testify and work closely with the lawyers. Generally a large successful class action will have quite a few of these to prove that it's not just one person. Lawyers can't just sue on their own because they feel like it.

So they're looking for the "perfect" plaintiff. One that has very clear damages, garners empathy, can testify well, etc. If you do this, you'll get a higher payout as courts understand the extra work the class reps do vs the passive members. But not millions.

 

[Tim B.]

Why PM/DM? The more people that see the process the better. It's not secret. I pretty much posted my experience here, but happy to help more. Ask away!

You mentioned in your post to PM/DM you for help. I wasn't sure if it was proper etiquette ask specific questions on the forum. Many thank for your assistance! The service you are providing the community is invaluable.

I am located in California.

Here are my questions:

1) Tesla has many places of business. What did you use as their mailing address? The service center? Corporate office in Austin, TX? or offices in Palo Alto since I'm in California?
2) You stated that you served Tesla’s registered agent in your state. How do you find the registered again in each state and address (in my case it would be California)? Since they have offices in Palo Alto, could I just serve the documents there?
3) This my be jumping the gun, but once you get a judgement where did you send it to get paid? Their legal department?

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Tim B.]

How is this still under warranty? Did you buy Tesla cpo or buy from private party that has extended service agreement?

We bought the car used from tesla back in 2019. At the time their used cars came with a 4 year/50,000 mile warranty...

 

[MP3Mike]

2) You stated that you served Tesla’s registered agent in your state. How do you find the registered again in each state and address (in my case it would be California)? Since they have offices in Palo Alto, could I just serve the documents there?

He answered that here:

Tesla is a Delware company legally.

You don't have to notify them first. You only notify them once you have to serve them, which is once you get your court date.

Once you have a court date, you have to look up their registered agent in CA. The secretary of state will have this. This is their legal representative in the state in which they do buisness. In CA, this appears to be:

C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
28 LIBERTY STREET NEW YORK, NY 10005

So once you have a court date and can serve them, you send registered mail to the above address.

 

[Tim B.]

2) You stated that you served Tesla’s registered agent in your state. How do you find the registered again in each state and address (in my case it would be California)? Since they have offices in Palo Alto, could I just serve the documents there?

Bye the way, I did do some internet research on this before asking. It looks like the registered agent is "C T Corporation System", "C T Corporation", or "Corporation Trust Company". I can't find an address for them in California. You also need to the name of the agent or person (first, last)....

 

[Tim B.]

Once you have a court date, you have to look up their registered agent in CA. The secretary of state will have this. This is their legal representative in the state in which they do buisness. In CA, this appears to be:

C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
28 LIBERTY STREET NEW YORK, NY 10005

Doesn't the registered agent for California need to be in the California?

 

[tesluv108]

We bought the car used from tesla back in 2019. At the time their used cars came with a 4 year/50,000 mile warranty...

I’m still wondering what Tesla’s excuse is to avoid this MCU repair under a valid warranty claim?! I understand that it wouldn’t be covered if the car was out of warranty, but to avoid repairing a car under either warranty provided by Tesla or an extended service is pure hogwash.

Imo Tesla has an opportunity to right a wrong here and replace everyone’s mcu1 who is under warranty no questions asked. But they continue to insist on nickle and diming customers that fueled their very existence

 

[Tim B.]

I’m still wondering what Tesla’s excuse is to avoid this MCU repair under a valid warranty claim?! I understand that it wouldn’t be covered if the car was out of warranty, but to avoid repairing a car under either warranty provided by Tesla or an extended service is pure hogwash.

Imo Tesla has an opportunity to right a wrong here and replace everyone’s mcu1 who is under warranty no questions asked. But they continue to insist on nickle and diming customers that fueled their very existence

Yes, it's completely hogwash. Our center screen constantly freezes and locks up every week or two and you would need to do a reboot by pressing the two scroll bars on the steering wheel. They said there was nothing wrong with the MCU and this behaviour is just a "characteristic" of the car. If we wanted to to have a better "experience" we would need to upgrade the infotainment system for over $2K. The funny thing about it was the tech was saying the reason why it crashes is the CPU usage was maxing out and we could avoid the issue by adjusting how we use the car, like not using navigation at the same time as the radio. I almost busted up laughing when they suggested this...

 

[Droschke]

Yes, it's completely hogwash. Our center screen constantly freezes and locks up every week or two and you would need to do a reboot by pressing the two scroll bars on the steering wheel. They said there was nothing wrong with the MCU and this behaviour is just a "characteristic" of the car. If we wanted to to have a better "experience" we would need to upgrade the infotainment system for over $2K. The funny thing about it was the tech was saying the reason why it crashes is the CPU usage was maxing out and we could avoid the issue by adjusting how we use the car, like not using navigation at the same time as the radio. I almost busted up laughing when they suggested this...

It's the old hardware not keeping up with the numerous software updates. To the best of my knowledge, no vendors, including the computer manufacturers, provide free hardware in this situation. The upside, if there is one considered, is that the price is fairly inexpensive.

 

[Tim B.]

It's the old hardware not keeping up with the numerous software updates. To the best of my knowledge, no vendors, including the computer manufacturers, provide free hardware in this situation. The upside, if there is one considered, is that the price is fairly inexpensive.

Yes, but I didn't buy a computer. I bought a car and the software updates are not optional...

 

[Droschke]

Yes, but I didn't buy a computer. I bought a car and the software updates are not optional...

I understand that and fully see both sides of this coin. I did also include no other car manufacturer when I wrote "no vendors, including the computer manufacturers". The "vendors" part was referring to car manufacturers. Not defending Tesla policies.

 

[ddeflyer]

By the same logic, if a wheel sometimes falls off on the freeway but you can put it back on, is that just a characteristic of the car that should be allowed? The unification of systems is great most of the time, but what happens if you are in the middle of a tunnel and you don't know if your turn signal is on because the MCU crashed?

Cars are kind of different from most systems in that they have extremely safety critical components (and hence the FVMSS) and hence much more regulation.

 

[gearchruncher]

Doesn't the registered agent for California need to be in the California?

Different states have different laws. It appears that in CA your registered agent does not have to have a mailing address in the state. So yes, CT corp in NY is correct. Tesla uses CT corp all over, and in states that must have a mailing address in the state, they have a hole in the wall office.

1) Tesla has many places of business. What did you use as their mailing address? The service center? Corporate office in Austin, TX? or offices in Palo Alto since I'm in California?
2) You stated that you served Tesla’s registered agent in your state. How do you find the registered again in each state and address (in my case it would be California)? Since they have offices in Palo Alto, could I just serve the documents there?
3) This my be jumping the gun, but once you get a judgement where did you send it to get paid? Their legal department?

You serve their registered agent. I think that answers #1/#2. The only place the local address matters is in your legal right to sue in a specific court. Look up your district court's rules, but most say that you can sue someone with a "place of business" in that jurisdiction, so you can use that court to sue as long as there is a service center. But you still serve the registered agent.

For #3, I just emailed the judgement to Tesla's [email protected] address. While they never once responded to any other communications there, to their credit, once they had an actual legal judgement in their hands, they contacted me and paid immediately.

 

[gearchruncher]

It's the old hardware not keeping up with the numerous software updates. To the best of my knowledge, no vendors, including the computer manufacturers, provide free hardware in this situation.

Tesla sold specific functions, such as voice commands, navigation, music, backup camera, etc. These are advertised in the product description.
Tesla also sold their car with a warranty, that the car would function as described for a period of time, and if it did not, Tesla would repair it at their cost.
Tesla pushed software updates to the car. Some of these software updates are MANDATORY due to safety recalls, and cannot be reversed.
These software updates have destabilized MCU1 to the point that many advertised functions no longer work.
Tesla says they are aware of this, that it is a "known software bug with no known resolution date" - and if you want your car to do what is described in the ORIGINAL owners manual, they suggest you upgrade to MCU2, at a cost which is more than $0.

Tesla didn't HAVE to sell you a car with a warranty. But they did.

Hence, a pretty clear case of breech of warranty.

 

[Droschke]

I've no disagreement.

 

[Tim B.]

You serve their registered agent. I think that answers #1/#2. The only place the local address matters is in your legal right to sue in a specific court. Look up your district court's rules, but most say that you can sue someone with a "place of business" in that jurisdiction, so you can use that court to sue as long as there is a service center. But you still serve the registered agent.

The California small claims form (online version) has 2 sections for the defendant information: one for the business name and address; and second section for "...the person or agent authorized for Service of Process: (Someone who is authorized to receive documents for the business such as the CEO, vice president, officers, managers, executive assistants, etc.)" and address. My first inclination was to list Elon Musk, CEO for the latter section.

I think it is best to use the information found on the California SOS business entity search. For future reference for anyone that is researching how to sue Tesla in California, I'll post the information here.

For the Business name and address it is:

Tesla Motors, Inc.
1 TESLA ROAD
AUSTIN, TX 78725

Agent name and address:

C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
28 LIBERTY STREET
NEW YORK, NY 10005

For the Agent information, the online form requires a name: First (required), Middle, Last (required), and position (required). It also states "(the Agent of Service address must be located in the State of California)" I believe this is a design flaw in the form since it assumes the Agent is a person rather than a corporation. If the agent is an individual, they are required to have a California address; however, if it is a 1505 Corporation, I believe (as previously stated) it can have an address outside California. I plan on enter "C T" for first, "Corporation" for middle, "Systems" for last and "N/A" for position and the address above.

On another note, during my research I found that "Tesla, Inc." was use as the company name in some legal filings. However, the California SOS search does not show a business entity named "Tesla, Inc.". "Tesla Motors, Inc." shows up and if you look at the detail for this entity, "Tesla, Inc." appears as a foreign name for "Tesla Motors, Inc.". I'm going to go with "Tesla Motors, Inc." in my filing since this the entity name that comes up in the California SOS search.

 

[Tim B.]

Tesla sold specific functions, such as voice commands, navigation, music, backup camera, etc. These are advertised in the product description.
Tesla also sold their car with a warranty, that the car would function as described for a period of time, and if it did not, Tesla would repair it at their cost.
Tesla pushed software updates to the car. Some of these software updates are MANDATORY due to safety recalls, and cannot be reversed.
These software updates have destabilized MCU1 to the point that many advertised functions no longer work.
Tesla says they are aware of this, that it is a "known software bug with no known resolution date" - and if you want your car to do what is described in the ORIGINAL owners manual, they suggest you upgrade to MCU2, at a cost which is more than $0.

Tesla didn't HAVE to sell you a car with a warranty. But they did.

Hence, a pretty clear case of breech of warranty.

Hello gearchruncher,

First, I would like to thank you for your assistance. It has been a great help. I filed the small claims and have a court date in April. In preparation for the trial, what evidence/documentation do you suggest submitting to the court? For example, you stated:

Tesla says they are aware of this, that it is a "known software bug with no known resolution date"

Is there official documentation of this somewhere? Any other advice for preparing for the trial would also be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

 

[2101Guy]

Hello gearchruncher,

First, I would like to thank you for your assistance. It has been a great help. I filed the small claims and have a court date in April. In preparation for the trial, what evidence/documentation do you suggest submitting to the court? For example, you stated:



Is there official documentation of this somewhere? Any other advice for preparing for the trial would also be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

Are you asking what docs are needed ahead of time to submit to the court? If so I’d suggest checking with the clerk for your small claims. In my jurisdiction they literally needed no evidence (other than the application) upfront. Nor was I required to give opposing party and evidence upfront. No discovery for small claims in my jurisdiction. As the customer I was able to hit them in person at time of hearing with my evidence. It was very relaxed.

*Above was NOT with Tesla but another large entity. Any legal actions in small claims that I’ve had with any carmaker (not saying names) has always ended in a (full) settlement before trial date.

 

[gearchruncher]

In my jurisdiction, you actively CAN NOT submit evidence before hand. That's the point of small claims, it's fast, easy, and low process. The whole thing happens while you and the defendant are there. The judge isn't going to be reviewing anything ahead of time.

But of course you want to prepare for what you're going to bring to court.

Is there official documentation of this somewhere? Any other advice for preparing for the trial would also be appreciated.

One of the things I've tried to explain here is that you have to collect your own evidence, and have your own story. The statement that this is a known software bug was told to me by Tesla when I actively asked them about this issue, and ASKED THEM TO FIX IT. I have it in writing because it's in my chat history with them. But notice that this happened because I actually ASKED Tesla to fix this first, and they looked into it, and told me the fix was MCU2, out of pocket, despite the car being under warranty.

I'd imagine a case going quite different if you show up in court, and your argument is that your MCU1 didn't work well, and Tesla sells MCU2, so you want to sure for that, but you never once asked Tesla to repair your car under warranty. A breech of warranty claim requires you to try and use that warranty, not just assume it will be denied because someone else was denied.

So @Tim B. - I'll turn it around. What issue are you having with MCU1, and what kind of communications have you had with Tesla where they have been unable or unwilling to resolve them? Those are the exact communications you want to bring to court. In my case it was as simple as that- I asked Tesla to make the voice commands in my car work as they did when I first got the car, they said they couldn't because it was a known SW bug and they couldn't revert SW because of a NHTSA recall, and the only known fix was MCU2, but it was not free. I have all that in writing, and it was all I felt I needed to bring because it told the whole story of a warranty breech right there.

The claim for the HW2 to HW3 was a bit different in that Tesla had many advertisements about having all HW needed for FSD. But I still brought the same thing- an Invoice from them, for more than $0, to upgrade hardware before I could subscribe to FSD. So one thing that could be helpful is a quote from them on the MCU upgrade.

 

[Tim B.]

The trial is going to be a remote hearing over Zoom. In the 1 page instruction document they gave me, they state that all evidence must be submitted electronically and provide a link. I'm assuming if I don't upload the evidence, it wouldn't be considered by the judge during the trial. I was planning on submitting the following evidence:

1) My chat log with the service center regarding the issue and their suggesting on upgrading the infotainment system for over $2K.
2) Proof that my car is still under warranty.
3) Short video showing my screen locked up and unresponsive.
4) Maybe the owner's manual.

My concern is that they never flat out stated in the chat log that they acknowledge the issue and that the only way to fix it was with the upgrade. They kind of talk around it and say that the "user experience" would be "enhanced" by the upgrade. It was during my phone call with the service center supervisor where he acknowledged that the current MCU could not properly run the current software and it would require a hardware upgrade to prevent it from locking up. Anyways, I'm just trying to be prepared as much as possible in case someone from Tesla does attend.