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HPC Problems using an EATON power conditioner

Discussion in 'Roadster' started by W.Petefish, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    I have recently had an EATON Power-Sure 800 installed in my house after an incident involving some line fuses. The conditioner came in and was installed via my electrician who is a registered EATON installer. This would under normal circumstances be fine, BUT the conditioner uses, from what I can tell, passive power factor correction. This has been causing "Line Sync Fault" to appear repeatedly on the VDS accompanied by a red charging ring.

    I am having my electrician call EATON out and scope the line, but it looks as if the conditioner is modifying the waveform of the AC sine wave. Bottom Line: If using a power conditioner, get one with ACTIVE power correction and waveform correction.

    A picture of how hilariously big this thing is right in front of the HPC.
    20120817_140910.jpg

    Yes, those are 1.25" conduits coming into and out of this beast.

    I am currently working with TM and the electrician to find out why this is causing issues. In the current state I am charging using my UMC, not that it makes much difference. (because of the line spikes that come from our utility or a cogen plant near by.)
     
  2. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    > incident involving some line fuses. [W.Petefish]

    Wasn't it lightning surges causing you grief??

    Anyway, I believe traditionally it is up to the power company to provide you with approx 1.0 power factor @ your service line. That they should (and do) install correcting capacitor banks up on power poles every so often to maintain pf at around this optimum level. Customers with heavy motor usage will shift the pf one way and capacitive use (lots of flourescent lights) the opposite. Resistive usage (incandescent lights & baseboard heating) does not effect pf. The cap banks try to even pf between neighborhoods which improves power flow. Charging an EV would be resistive, no?

    So why is it up to you to be doing all this at home & on your nickel??

    While charging my Roadster touchscreen shows: "237v 30A/30A" and I'm happy. Do I need to know more about this, like get out the 'scope and check the waveform??
    --
     
  3. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Unlikely. W.Petefish lives in the same area that I do and power is often spotty at the best of times. I have a 6 KVA UPS to run my electronics because the incoming power fluctuates a lot--even when the sky is blue. My hope is that the Model S will be less sensitive than the Roadster.
     
  4. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    Jerry33: >6 KVA UPS to run my electronics<

    Excellent! I have 3 small UPS at each computer station. Tres necessaire!!

    But WP is using 'conditioner' with active/passive pf correction*. This is not a UPS. The gross 'resistive' load provided by the Tesla should not be bothered to the extent electronics would be. Or maybe it kicks out during the charge cycle & then fails to resume. Next morning you have not enough miles to get to work- ouch. Tell us more!!

    * sounds like a hair product
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  5. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    That works too, but it's not as convenient as plugging to the wall sockets wired to the UPS. Also because there is a service panel between the UPS and the equipment, it's easy to cut the power if necessary.

    Right. It's supposed to keep the power even, not provide power in the event of a total failure. Power outages are uncommon around here but sags and spikes happen all too often.
     
  6. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    No. At our other house.
    No. The power factor is too high because of a cogeneration plant close to my house that is sending spikes down the line.

    Because "10%" is within tolerances for the utility. Otherwise I'd get my over-priced, under-worked lawyer on it.

    It is just under the 10% threshold. 250v w/ spikes going into the 26Xv range. The problem with just getting a scope on it is the fact that most scopes won't handle +250V. I need to get a power line analyzer, which my electrician is finding.

    It was the fact that the sound coming from the transformer changed -just- before the roadster threw a fault.

    The roadster incorporates some power line and waveform monitoring. It is not a type thing of stopping and failing to resume, it is a failure to start in the first place. The conditioner, from the errors that we have been seeing, is modifying the waveform in some way.
     
  7. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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  8. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    #8 W.Petefish, Sep 2, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
    Nice. I think that the roadster would qualify as a non-linear load in this case.

    (By PF I mean the Actual Power used/Rated Power as it is the best way to describe what is happening.)
     
  9. wycolo

    wycolo Active Member

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    > dpeilow: I don't think you understand power factor. You can't have 'too high' - it's a number between 0 and 1, with 1 being desirable.

    Power Companies love florescent lighting loads (capacitive) on their systems since it saves them having to install capacitor banks to correct power factor, ie keep pf close to 1.0. This is mostly because of refrigeration being in every home (inductive motors). As inductive loading increases on a system, the power curve now begins to lag the voltage sine wave. If it lags to 90% of perfect, you now have a 0.9 pf which means your motors are running at 90% of optimum voltage (or at such a voltage that their power output is now 90% of optimum). Whichever it is, it is bad news, and they have to add cap banks here and there around their service area to try to balance inductive loading vs capacitive loading. It is an ongoing battle.

    Power company views a charging Roadster as purely resistive, no?? How could it be otherwise? In the PEM the Inverter is converting the 240vac from the line into 440vdc to charge the battery. All done by solid state electronics, no transformers. Transformers (inductive load) weigh huge!!

    Voltage SPIKES is a different story from power pfactor. A spike in instantaneous line voltage would appear on top of the 60 cycle voltage sine curve and you could see it on your scope, regardless of the scale your scope is set to. If the scale is set too low the spike would just be cut off on the top of the display. When 'scoping your power line you can adjust persistence(?) to retain the trace for x seconds, otherwise it would disappear almost instantly. So easier to observe than a sky meteor trail. If indeed there is a lot of crap on your power line, monitoring would prove quite entertaining. A peak voltage recorder could make printouts that you could show that gen-plant to clean up their act. I have no idea why they would be particularly prone to outputting garbage.
    --
     
  10. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    Transformers are not really an inductive load; they essentially "echo" the load on the other side.

    Yes, a switching power supply should be designed to have a zero power factor, but simple designs can have a very bad power factor. See Switched-mode power supply - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  11. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    Ok... update of sorts.

    EATON came out yesterday afternoon along with my electrician. The EATON rep said that most line conditioners use a cap-transformer arrangement to drop the voltage. However, this clips the waveform of the incoming power. (by clips I mean that it makes a nice sine wave into a modified sine wave w/ flat peaks.) Consequentially this causes a line sync fault. This was verified by the rep and his power analyzer. (in an outing that took no more than 30 min.)

    From what was said, EATON's engineers will start a re-design of some power conditioners. (and maybe contact Tesla as well for input.)
     
  12. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    What does that mean for you? Will EATON provide you with a solution that works?
     
  13. W.Petefish

    W.Petefish Active Member

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    Well... my electrician isn't getting paid until this is resolved. So, I think that he will be riding their collective butts until they come up with a solution.
     

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