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HPCs at Supercharging sites?
- Thread starter visionik
- Start date
Unlike the simple J1772 / UMC / HPC "car is attached" (car->EVSE) and "you can draw ### amps" (EVSE to car), the Supercharger likely has a much more complicated bi-directional "discussion" between car and charger. I would assume that the car is telling the charger to vary volts & amps, probably sending along SOC updates, maybe even some temperature readings.
So, I think you would have to be very sophisticated to build something that could convince a Supercharger to provide power to you.
I'd be interested in knowin if part of the "discussion" is an encoded version of the VIN, or some challenge/response sequence that could be used to ensure that non-Tesla vehicles don't get access to power.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
J1772-DC works similarly (it supports both AC and DC charging from the same connector). The difference is the station doesn't do the detection of the car (it makes no assumption about the car), but rather it's the car that tells the station what it wants.
But I find it unlikely they will allow those stations to output AC even if it is possible, because it hogs a connector that can be used for DC charging. Most likely they just install an HPC (not like it costs that much).
Like Robert though, I'm curious if they added a proprietary detection to see if the car is a Tesla (in case some Leaf or iMIEV driver built a CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter). Although, my idea is that the simplest way to do it with the existing data that the charger likely already gathers is just to exclude cars that have lower than X amount of battery capacity or even more secure is to exclude based on charging voltage/current (since you can spoof battery capacity, but you can't spoof those two).
Nominal Voltage for Leaf is 360V, for iMIEV 330V, Model S is about 380V (from a screenshot of the diagnostics screen).
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dhrivnak
Active Member
Not likely, but to travel to EVCCON (electric vehicle conversion convention) or to a service center in DC or Atlanta would be MOST helpful.
I use my Roadster as a car and most cars can travel more than 100 miles from home without requiring a 9 hour 'charge' stop as all current j-1772 chargers require.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Or traveling between Sacramento and Newport Beach. Or Sacramento and Seattle. And then there's Chad, who has traveled between Seattle and San Diego. And Rafael. Traveled around the world.
strider
Active Member
Well, but we don't know that do we? mitch672 laid out some reasons why the cost would not be trivial. Gotta tell you Bonnie, vfx, and others, whenever Tesla comes out with something and everyone here gets all wound up you plead for calm and tell people to give Tesla time to figure it out and that they'll do the right thing. In this thread I would say the same to you. Let Tesla get Model S and the SCs out and then in a year or two when they have plenty of cash and a good sales cadence they could go back in and add in some HPC's to their existing sites based upon where Roadsters are located. Roadster owners have been managing to drive between Sac, SF, and LA for a few years now so we can just keep doing what we were doing.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Strider - totally agree with you. I believe I only stated my feelings and said I'd take it up directly with Tesla. That's what I did. Not sure how that's 'all wound up'. When others say it's ridiculous to think people would drive their Roadsters any measurable difference, I felt a need to respond to that. Surely you don't disagree?
I am speaking for many other owners that are in our LA group that do not inhabit TMC. That I am posting (mostly responding) on this subject is a reflection of what I feel is a correctly weighted response for those who are unheard by my one poll vote.
I also pointed out an another thread that while the Supercharger is not Roadster compatible, Tesla had merely overlooked the HPC idea as opposed to the 3-phase denial of inclusion.
(Response to Strider)
I'm not a licensed electrician so mitch672 could be right but none of us know. We don't know what we don't know. I was told the SC lighting was LED. Is that industrial 277V or whatever?
As for waiting a few years, I disagree. Besides the fact it is cheaper to build wiring in from the start, I have enough projects around here that "I will get to someday" to know how that goes. I imagine as Roadster becomes a tiny fraction of Tesla's cars on the road the HPCs would end up on the permanent backburner. Bottom of the file. Three sheets to the wind. [add last cliche here]
I also pointed out an another thread that while the Supercharger is not Roadster compatible, Tesla had merely overlooked the HPC idea as opposed to the 3-phase denial of inclusion.
(Response to Strider)
I'm not a licensed electrician so mitch672 could be right but none of us know. We don't know what we don't know. I was told the SC lighting was LED. Is that industrial 277V or whatever?
As for waiting a few years, I disagree. Besides the fact it is cheaper to build wiring in from the start, I have enough projects around here that "I will get to someday" to know how that goes. I imagine as Roadster becomes a tiny fraction of Tesla's cars on the road the HPCs would end up on the permanent backburner. Bottom of the file. Three sheets to the wind. [add last cliche here]
With this kind of stuff, I think it's also helpful to pass on suggestions while some things are still in the planning stage.
mitch672
Active Member
Upon visual inspection (via pictures of various SuperCharger sites on this forum), it appears the actual SuperCharger itself runs on 120/208 3 phase. The site that has the 277V/480V transformer also as an extra "box" that appears next to the white SuperCharger box, that appears to be a secondary transformer stepping down the 277/480 to 120/208 most likely.
This makes sense, as JB Straubel stated in the NY Times article that the SuperCharger contains (12) of the standard 10KW Chargers, same building blocks used internally on the Model S, and we know those can take 208-240VAC.
The picture of the SC at Harris Ranch does not have the secondary box to drop the voltage, so it's likely being fed with a 120/208 3 phase feed.
I thought I would mention this, as it now appears it probably won't be a big deal to install an HPC, as the voltages are compatible.
The site being fed with 277/480 is probably due to the larger service being delivered (500KVA is a seriously large electrical service), that's probably because they are planning up to 3 or 4 (6 or 8 car bays) of 120KW SuperChargers at that site (remember each SC white cabinet is made up of (12) 10KW internal Model S chargers (120KW max each)
FYI, LED lighting is available in any commercial voltage, as well as solar inverters as well.
Higher voltages just use smaller gauge wiring to deliver the same power.
NY Times artcile with JB Straubel descriptions, picture of Harris Ranch SC:
On an Electric Highway, Charging Into the Future - NYTimes.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Supercharger is clever in its construction. It starts with the same 10-kilowatt charger that is onboard every Model S. To build the Supercharger, the company strings together 12 of the same units, which were designed from the beginning as building blocks"
It’s good modular engineering,” Mr. Straubel said. “We configured all the circuitry, the power and the communications so we can just stack them up.”
"Each Supercharger can serve two cars, and most locations will have three units. With solar panels planned for many locations, operating costs are expected to remain low, perhaps explaining the free recharges."
EDIT: I have attempted to update most of my previous posts about 277/480, I may not have managed to edit them all. It's fairly evident now that the SC white box containing the (12) 10KW Model S chargers runs on 120/208V 3 phase (3 phase to keep the loads balanced very likely)
This makes sense, as JB Straubel stated in the NY Times article that the SuperCharger contains (12) of the standard 10KW Chargers, same building blocks used internally on the Model S, and we know those can take 208-240VAC.
The picture of the SC at Harris Ranch does not have the secondary box to drop the voltage, so it's likely being fed with a 120/208 3 phase feed.
I thought I would mention this, as it now appears it probably won't be a big deal to install an HPC, as the voltages are compatible.
The site being fed with 277/480 is probably due to the larger service being delivered (500KVA is a seriously large electrical service), that's probably because they are planning up to 3 or 4 (6 or 8 car bays) of 120KW SuperChargers at that site (remember each SC white cabinet is made up of (12) 10KW internal Model S chargers (120KW max each)
FYI, LED lighting is available in any commercial voltage, as well as solar inverters as well.
Higher voltages just use smaller gauge wiring to deliver the same power.
NY Times artcile with JB Straubel descriptions, picture of Harris Ranch SC:
On an Electric Highway, Charging Into the Future - NYTimes.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Supercharger is clever in its construction. It starts with the same 10-kilowatt charger that is onboard every Model S. To build the Supercharger, the company strings together 12 of the same units, which were designed from the beginning as building blocks"
It’s good modular engineering,” Mr. Straubel said. “We configured all the circuitry, the power and the communications so we can just stack them up.”
"Each Supercharger can serve two cars, and most locations will have three units. With solar panels planned for many locations, operating costs are expected to remain low, perhaps explaining the free recharges."
EDIT: I have attempted to update most of my previous posts about 277/480, I may not have managed to edit them all. It's fairly evident now that the SC white box containing the (12) 10KW Model S chargers runs on 120/208V 3 phase (3 phase to keep the loads balanced very likely)
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Ripping up concrete a year later is not easy. Agree it needs to be planned for now. Tesla has more than doubled their work force in about a year and many of the newer employees have never been trained to think about the Roadster. It's probably not even talked about much. I know the superchargers have been in the works for longer than that but only in relation to the Model S.
At the recent Natick Mall store opening I was pleased to see they installed 2 HPCs with Roadster connectors in the parking garage. They may have done this because there is a temporary shortage of HPWCs and they expect to get roadster->Model S adapters sooner. Still, it was nice.
J1772 has a DC protocol that involves 2-way communication. The charging station needs a lot of data from the car like SOC, temperature, cell voltage, etc., etc. We don't know to what extent they are using J1772 DC protocol if at all but I will be surprised if there is no authentication to ensure only Tesla vehicles.
strider
Active Member
Well, you used the term "gobsmacked" so I intoned that as being wound up. Good 'ole emotionless internet where we try to guess what others are feeling. It's all good.
As to those talking about ripping up concrete. It looks like in most of these pics only 1 or 2 of the planned 6 spaces are built out and all the concrete is in. I bet they won't build out all 6 until there are enough Model S' on the road and there is enough usage to justify the addition. So there's probably just copper in the ground waiting. So they could use that for SC plugs or HPC plugs - copper doesn't care what it carries.
mitch672 said:
Do we? What about charging on 110? Are we sure they didn't design the bricks to take 110-277V?
hjr
#1291
I'll bet that of the 1,800 or so Roadster owners there are at least 1/2 who ordered an S or X as well. They really do need to keep us happy as we are the base of their support. Bonnie is right - if I was compensated for my time (OK, my rate is high) promoting the car I could easily buy at least another Roadster. I am of both minds - I want the attention - but I realize that if Tesla fails we all will be stuck with cars that have no support stream, no spare parts, etc. So let them concentrate ont he Model S for now!
Henry - thanks for the note about the chargers in Natick - I think those are the only ones between me in New Haven and you in VT! I am very jealous of the California contingent who have it all so easily available! There is essentially no public infrastructure in New England at all. TMC called me about SC in Connecticut and where to put one. They were thinking New London and Springfield so you can do the I-95 and I-91 corridors. They would probably aff another in VT so you can do NY-Montreal or Boston-Montreal. An HPC at those locations would be a blessing (but a boring 3 hours for a Roadster).
Henry - thanks for the note about the chargers in Natick - I think those are the only ones between me in New Haven and you in VT! I am very jealous of the California contingent who have it all so easily available! There is essentially no public infrastructure in New England at all. TMC called me about SC in Connecticut and where to put one. They were thinking New London and Springfield so you can do the I-95 and I-91 corridors. They would probably aff another in VT so you can do NY-Montreal or Boston-Montreal. An HPC at those locations would be a blessing (but a boring 3 hours for a Roadster).
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