HPCs at Supercharging sites?

[doug]

I dunno... Maybe I think common standards are the only way for the whole EV industry to compete with gas infrastructure in the long run.
What if Ford came out with an ICE car model next year that could only be refueled at Ford factory branded gas stations?
Even if they gave the fuel away it wouldn't get very far if most of the gas stations were using the standard that everyone else used.

???
This is a non arguement. The more apt version of your analogy would be if Ford put out a car that could be fueled for free at their branded gas stations, but could refuel at other stations as well. Given the price of gas, that would be a popular car.

I'm not that worried about different charging standards on EVs at this stage. Technology advances and things will shake out. If there's a need, someone will make an adapter. Since when could you safely put diesel in an unleaded engine just by using the proper adapter nozzle.

 

[richkae]

I dunno... Maybe I think common standards are the only way for the whole EV industry to compete with gas infrastructure in the long run.
What if Ford came out with an ICE car model next year that could only be refueled at Ford factory branded gas stations?
Even if they gave the fuel away it wouldn't get very far if most of the gas stations were using the standard that everyone else used.

Unfortunately there is no EV industry to compete with the ICE industry.
There is Tesla and there is Nissan ( and Coda ) that make EVs. Each of them are competing with the rest of the ICE manufacturers.
None of the other manufacturers want to help them in any way - which is one reason why SAE is such a cluster****.

Is there some strategic alliance that could help both Nissan and Tesla? Maybe but it's not clear.
Nissan makes a city car that very few brave souls will drive more than 100 miles from home, fast chargers or not. Nissan needs fast charging in the city to make your car more convenient the day you want to drive around town for more than 3 hours.
Tesla vehicles only need fast charging when they are driving on a long trip - more than 100 miles from home.

The big problem with charging is that there is no money in it. I don't see Chargepoint and Blink and those guys surviving without government handouts - and government makes them do stupid things like install 30 amp chargers.

In the near term the only solution that makes sense for Tesla is to go it alone and provide for their own customers.

 

[vfx]

???
This is a non arguement. The more apt version of your analogy would be if Ford put out a car that could be fueled for free at their branded gas stations, but could refuel at other stations as well. .....

And it filled at 4 times the speed.

 

[AndrewBissell]

I don't think you can use a "buck/boost" because of the variable load of the HPC

There are commercial transformers that take 277/480 service and bring it down to 120/208, for a price anything can be done.
The point is, they probably don't see the need to spend the extra money.

They could of course have a 2nd electrical service of 120/208 put on, but that's an extra meter charge, more $$$$

And of course power is nearby, it all costs money to bring in, and seperate meter charges.
You guys have no idea how expensive commercial electrical work is, or how long it takes.
It's expensive and the electric companies are not known for their speed.

I think you will find that David Peilow actually know a LOT about this. I have no idea what your background is but I do know David's and it's fair to say he knows a great deal about how to arrange electrical supplies for EVSEs.

 

[mitch672]

I think you will find that David Peilow actually know a LOT about this. I have no idea what your background is but I do know David's and it's fair to say he knows a great deal about how to arrange electrical supplies for EVSEs.

I've done commercial electrical work before, put in a pad mount 75KVA transformer, grounding grid required for it, made up the high voltage connectors etc, so I know a fair amount about it. Yes, he's right you can use 2 legs and convert 480V to 240V, like I said, anything can be done, for a price. The question is, with Tesla struggling with funding (they are issuing more stock on Wednesday), committing to building 100 SuperCharger sites (minimum), is it really required to spend another $3-10K per site, and send a mixed message as well, or would they just be better off keeping them pure SuperCharger sites, and finding better nearby sites to host the HPCs. I think the answer is clear. Their mission is to produce the cars, and become highly successful or the whole thing could blow up, and they'll be another footnote in EV history. Only by getting the, cars manufactured, and out on public roads, where they can be seen being used & driven can they generate more sales and become a success. Placing HPCs at SuperCharger sites is not going to do much for that goal, the 40KW pack users may not have the range to get to them, there are only 2,500 Roadsters, and that's their past, not their future.

 

[bonnie]

I don't really think adding HPCs to the sites is a 'make or break' deal for Tesla. The sites are not green field installations, with nothing in the area, starting from bare earth. They are located in fairly built up locations. And it's by far cheaper to add an HPC to this than it would be to find an existing nearby location, as you suggest.

As far as cost, most of us (Roadster owners) are well aware of what it costs to install an HPC, since we have helped fund the existing infrastructure, out of our pockets.

We understand that we are 'Tesla's past', as you put it - but perhaps you don't understand the role that these cars have played and that without Roadster owners acting as a huge sales force for Tesla, there would likely not be a future. That's a fact. We've spent countless hours at events showing our cars, handing out brochures (most of us carry a stack of Model S brochures in our cars), talking to every curious onlooker, funding infrastructure, building charging maps, and (surely you know this) being the test bed, dealing with new technology that wasn't always bullet-proof and providing real-world data that allowed Tesla to produce their first production-ready vehicle, the Model S.

 

[mitch672]

Sure Bonnie, and we and Tesla thank you other Roadster owners for your past contribution(s). Now Tesla must move on and produce tens of thousands of Model S, so the 3rd generation lower cost model can then be produced, and allow for mass adoption and make Tesla Motors a household name... At that point the Model S owners will be Teslas past as well, that's just how life goes. Ultimately to be a success Tesla has to get the price lower to be more affordable, and still exist to make the cars. There are many forces in the world that are betting they will fail at that mission, lets try and support them in the ultimate mission. Btw some of the SuperCharger sites are greenfield, as evidenced by new 500KVA transformer installs, new solar canopies etc.. They seem to be buying odd bits of unused areas to convert.

Mitch

 

[bonnie]

Sure Bonnie, and we and Tesla thank you other Roadster owners for your past contribution(s). Now Tesla must move on and produce tens of thousands of Model S, so the 3rd generation lower cost model can then be produced, and allow for mass adoption and make Tesla Motors a household name... At that point the Model S owners will be Teslas past as well, that's just how life goes. Ultimately to be a success Tesla has to get the price lower to be more affordable, and still exist to make the cars. There are many forces in the world that are betting they will fail at that mission, lets try and support them in the ultimate mission. Btw some of the SuperCharger sites are greenfield, as evidenced by new 500KVA transformer installs, new solar canopies etc.. They seem to be buying odd bits of unused areas to convert.

Mitch

Our only disagreement is I don't happen to believe that putting in an HPC will prevent Tesla from being successful - and in fact, I believe keeping ALL their customers happy is an essential ingredient to that success. I don't believe they can afford to throw away the continued efforts of Roadster owners in the community on their behalf.

- - - Updated - - -

They seem to be buying odd bits of unused areas to convert.

Could you give more info on this? I'm well aware of the current locations - do you have info on future locations? So far, none of the installations are greenfield.

 

[mitch672]

Our only disagreement is I don't happen to believe that putting in an HPC will prevent Tesla from being successful - and in fact, I believe keeping ALL their customers happy is an essential ingredient to that success. I don't believe they can afford to throw away the continued efforts of Roadster owners in the community on their behalf.

I think they will make that decision on installing HPCs at SuperCharger sites on a site by site basis, factoring in the population of 40KW Model S buyers and Roadster owners, along with existing 70A J-1772 and HPCs in the nearby area. I don't think they even have plans for HPCs at SC sites yet, but they will factor the additional cost into the decision per site as well. They have limited funds available at this point, so they do have to keep any eye on the bottom line... Next year if they start becoming cash flow positive and actually generating free cash, they can do a lot more, but right now they are in a tenuous situation, they can't do everything now, they have to produce the Model S, ship them and generate income. Everything else is secondary to that goal, including SC deployment. They deployed SCs in a good portion of CA, to demonstrate its real and it works , that was important since a fair number of the Model S's will be sold in CA.

 

[bonnie]

I think they will make that decision on installing HPCs at SuperCharger sites on a site by site basis, factoring in the population of 40KW Model S buyers and Roadster owners, along with existing 70A J-1772 and HPCs in the nearby area. I don't think they even have plans for HPCs at SC sites yet, but they will factor the additional cost into the decision per site as well.

Not sure where you're getting your information regarding decisions on a site-by-site basis. And yes, I'm fairly sure they have NO plans for HPCs at sites yet. That would be the reason you see Roadster owners becoming vocal. Most of us were gobsmacked over the decision.

 

[mitch672]

- - - Updated - - -

Could you give more info on this? I'm well aware of the current locations - do you have info on future locations? So far, none of the installations are greenfield.

In the pictures of the site across from the Best Western, that appears to be a new parking area, there was an inset showing it was former grass area. There also appears to be new curbing in the parking area... I'm on the east coast so I only have pictures/posts in this forum to view these sites, do tell...

 

[dsm363]

I would think the cost to adding one HPC and one HPWC would be a small fraction of the cost of building the entire site and would not break the project, only provide good will. They could easily convert the HPC to a second HPWC in a few years with they have either converted all Roadsters to Model S/X plug or made an adapter.

 

[jkirkebo]

There is another good reason for putting in L2 capability too; if a Model S owner needs 100% charge. SCin to more than 80% takes a long time, you don't want to tie up the SC for that. Better to move the car over and finish on 20kW L2.

They should put in one HPC and one or two HPWCs.

 

[dpeilow]

As I said elsewhere, the fact they have the same plug for both means it would be a doddle to switch through AC to any of the supercharger bays for non-DC cars.

 

[vfx]

Tesla has a car loan program where employees can borrow a Roadster for a day or a weekend (A very long line for that one) So this means that not only the Tesla executives, board members and Tesla investors who can afford the Roadster drive them but for the last three years every employee has had the opportunity to enjoy the Roadster's acceleration and long driving range.

That means everyone from Elon, GB, JB, FV down the the guys that sweeps the floor have been driving the Roadster and using the network of HPCs that have been installed across the state by private owners trying to make a better experience for other Roadster drivers. And there is no reason to think that they would stop using those units (and the privately installed J sites too) once Supercharge sites are up.
Would be nice of them to return the favor as long as they are there digging up the ground and installing a big charger station anyway.

 

[bonnie]

Tesla has a car loan program where employees can borrow a Roadster for a day or a weekend (A very long line for that one) So this means that not only the Tesla executives, board members and Tesla investors who can afford the Roadster drive them but for the last three years every employee has had the opportunity to enjoy the Roadster's acceleration and long driving range.

That means from from Elon, GB, JB, FV down the the guys that sweeps the floor have been driving the Roadster and using the network of HPCs that have been installed across the state by private owners trying to make a better experience for other Roadster drivers. And there is no reason to think that they would stop using those units (and the privately installed J sites too) once Supercharge sites are up.
Would be nice of them to return the favor as long as they are there digging up the ground and installing a big charger station anyway.

Exactly.

 

[mitch672]

As I said elsewhere, the fact they have the same plug for both means it would be a doddle to switch through AC to any of the supercharger bays for non-DC cars.

Yes, we see JB has stated each pair of SCs consists of 12 of their standard 10KW chargers they are using internally on the Model S, that's why Elon stated SC had the capability to charger at 120KW in the future.

Now add in detection of non SC enabled cars

Could it be done? Sure, anything is possible with enough engineering time, money and desire. Is that where they want to focus their energy? Only JB and Tesla can answer that question.

NY times article, JB states 12 standard chargers per SC pairing, was in another thread, found it:
On an Electric Highway, Charging Into the Future - NYTimes.com

Post updated: SC appear to run directly on 120/208 3 phase

 

[wycolo]

> Now add in detection of non SC enabled cars, and figure out converting the 480VAC to 240VAC and switching it to the SC cable... [mitch672]

detection - ??? figure out - ??? SC cable - ???

HPCs are separate units using their own style connectors. Deriving 240vac for them is not a mystery. TM knows how to install HPCs better than anyone. What is your point here?
--

 

[mitch672]

> Now add in detection of non SC enabled cars, and figure out converting the 480VAC to 240VAC and switching it to the SC cable... [mitch672]

detection - ??? figure out - ??? SC cable - ???

HPCs are separate units using their own style connectors. Deriving 240vac for them is not a mystery. TM knows how to install HPCs better than anyone. What is your point here?
--

That's a reply to post #97, regarding using the SuperCharger connector to deliver AC to 40KW and non-SC enabled 60KW Model S's, since they use the same connector. No seperate HPC2s or dedicated HPC2s required, his idea is any SC position can be used to deliver AC or DC, if Tesla chose to allow it, it's technically possible. My point is, Tesla probably isn't interested in this, it adds cost and complexity to the SC design, and they don't want cars sitting for hours charging.

 

[frequencydip]

> Really doesn't make sense. Roadsters are not *riffraff*, but the car that made all this possible. Putting in an HPC allows the sites to work for all Tesla customers. I'm missing why you think that is a bad business decision. [bonnie1194]

True enough in the short term. Long term however, can you imagine all the whingeing that will fill this forum in future re: non-Teslas cluttering up the Supercharger Stations using the HPC (because they all now have adapters & just love the free KWHs). Requiring TM to install more & more HPCs causing even more clutter. TM will thus become the defacto, rather than the specific, really messing up their business model. TM has always said their network 'is for Model_Ss' so they are being consistent here. Others assumed they meant Roadsters too. As Roadsters dwindle as a proportion of Teslas at large, their exclusion from this equation makes sense. Let Roadster folk continue to use & encourage EVSE progress ex-TMSCs. I'm one myself, but understand the need for TM to be exclusive, to set up gates that only open for Ss. If monoliths like Nissan, Toyota & GM, etc want to get busy with SCs and be generous to all comers, they can. But so far they haven't even talked the talk.
--

I highly doubt Tesla has not prepared for this scenario, either the charging stations will communicate with the car over the cable and authenticate the car before delivering juice, or Tesla SC will require a card or maybe the car key to activate the charger. The charges are not just going to flow free juice, that would attract all kinds of people looking for free energy. The SC stations should have a 70amp HPC for the roadsters especially if tesla wants the roadster to maintain higher value.