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HPWC charging at shopping center - only 25 mi per charging hour

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by brucet999, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    Shopping yesterday at South Coast Plaza and checked out the EV charging slots. They offer four Charge Point charging slots and one HPWC. 2 hours free charging, so I plugged in.

    Odd, I thought, that I'm charging at 40A but at only 25 miles per hour rate instead of Tesla's claimed 29. Then I noticed the voltage was only 204V. Of course, a big place like the would be on three-phase wiring with 208V per phase and way out in the parking structure line loss could easily bring that down 2% to 204V.

    Not complaining, mind you. I added 50 miles while buying an iPhone and some books. That's a pretty good deal.
     
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  2. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    That's stil better than the J1772 plugs beside that charger.
     
  3. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    What you saw is very typical. The 29 miles/ hr is when it's installed at home on 240V.
     
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  4. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    Was it really worth your time to find the charging stations, take the time to plug in/unplug, walk any extra distance to the shops (if any) just to get 50 miles?
     
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  5. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    Ugh... hell ya. If a shop offers a charger, I'm on it even if its 15 minutes.

    The parking spots are usually close to the building, prime.
     
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  6. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    The design for the ones that @brucet999 is not too close to the entrance. It's not far either... it's on the wall away from the entrance to the mall, which is closer to the "middle" of the building (parking is on the lower level from the shops.).
     
  7. gregd

    gregd Active Member

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    And by using them we encourage cities and businesses to continue to build out the infrastructure we need to replace our current oil-dependent transportation system.
     
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  8. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    so you're one of those guys who use the chargers without really needing the charge and possibly blocking someone out who might really need a charge just so you can get some free power and park closer to the stores? SMH
     
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  9. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    #9 scottm, Dec 18, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
    .. and to show there's a demand, they meter these things
    .. and to shame the non plug in hybrids parking there
    .. and to spotlight my beautiful car and get people talking about EV,
    .. and making a statement about not using gas


    Yes, absolutely. You need to understand where I live EV are rare.
    We're still in the awareness and education stages of EV here. there is seldom if ever contention for any EV spot

    In and out of a store in 20 minutes using their vacant EV spot is a no harm no foul perfect example of what these stalls are for..

    "Who needs a charge" is equal. Every EV equally needs to charge.
    Teslas are not general charity blanket sources for lower capacity cars.

    There is currently no way to know " who really needs to charge" more than another when I pull up to a vacant charging spot, to decide if I should park there or not.

    I suppose a person who really needs a charge badly will park nearby and wait in their car 15 minutes or so to take the spot when someone leaves. How long they're willing to sit there and wait determines how much they really need the charge.
     
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  10. No2DinosaurFuel

    No2DinosaurFuel Active Member

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    Right but the OP stayed for 2 hours the limit of the parking time. I am with kort. Plug in do your thing and get out so others can use the spot. This is my experiences in CA chargers in general. Sometime people over stay because they can. As for EV awareness I am sure if there is enough demand for them they will see it in their electricity bill. No need to park am EV there all day.
     
  11. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    Demand is created when the second EV stall occupier, or heaven forbid the third EV in need of a spot talks to the store manager and says, your two EV stalls are occupied can you please consider making more?

    I also would make a point of seeking out the store manager if spots are ICEd and tell them they have a signage or awareness problem they need to address if they want to accommodate EVs

    Stores that tout themselves as eco friendly, like IKEA or MEC .. would listen and probably start the chains in motion to make more.
     
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  12. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    Guys in CAlifornia, let's stop demonizing the guy in CAnada...

    I was @scottm almost five years ago when I got my first EV... The ActiveE that I used to drive can only get 100 miles at most and I was able to drive 54,321 miles in the two years of my lease BECAUSE I could plug in anywhere I can... (ABC rule, Always Be Charging).

    In 2013, when we got our Model S, and didn't need to charge, the demand in CAlifornia grew to the point where the behavior that you guys espouse to should become the norm for those of us that can get by without plugging in at these centers. However, I've ALSO been that guy, on a trip, in an unfamiliar part of the country that for my wife and my piece of mind, plugged in to whatever L2 I can get, so I didn't have to worry about it. Unless you're OUT of STATE on these trips, fellow EV owners MAY give me a little stink because, I drive a Tesla and using the L2 that is there for the public to use.

    Both @scottm and you guys (@kort677 & @No2DinosaurFuel) are right, it just depends on WHERE you are.

    I say, keep on doing what you're doing @scottm, just be cognizant when things start to change around you.
     
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  13. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    A bit grumpy are we? :)

    Big sign near underground parking entrance directs to chargers which are about 25 yards from the escalator up to shops, closer than 90% of parking spaces. Took me a whole 30 seconds to plug in so, yes, it was worth it.
     
  14. kort677

    kort677 Banned

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    better pre planning of your trips would go a long way to not being in that position.
     
  15. AEdennis

    AEdennis Active Member

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    #15 AEdennis, Dec 18, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
    Where's the fun in that... pre-planning? Only do that's for SC travel. What about when you're at a destination and want to explore the area? I've gone multiple thousand mile journeys with the most basic plans and a lot of winging it...

    Some folks think that SC network would preclude Teslas from needing to charge L2 and that simply is not the case. It's in addition to...
     
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  16. hcsharp

    hcsharp Active Member

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    Not grumpy at all. I'm just making a point about your time and courtesy for other EV drivers (depending on where you are). I'm fully aware that EV charging spots are often (usually?) more convenient than other parking. That's why I said "if any" in my post when referring to extra walking distance.

    I've followed a trajectory similar to @AEdennis. I used to plug in whenever I had a chance, even for short periods like you do. As the years passed I became more aware of my time. Even 30 seconds extra time, and you have to admit it usually takes longer than that, is generally not worth it for me. Obviously there are other considerations and if you enjoy plugging in for 15 minutes, by all means do it. I won't judge you for how you want to spend your time unless you live in an area where there is potential to inconvenience other EV drivers.

    These words from @AEdennis are spot-on. Pay attention to when things eventually change in your area.

     
  17. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #17 Ulmo, Dec 28, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
    Ok, I'll have to think about this etiquette.

    After my almost running out of charge saga on my 3rd day (turned into night (turned into next morning)) of owning my car, when I found an EVGO Chademo station that did not work (already on my charge backup plan C at that time) and that caused me to have to literally choose between freezing weather with the heater off so I could get a charge at a 120VAC 15amp (12amp continuous) outlet vs. staying warm, and slowly crawled up the ladder of available charging options (Level 2 J1772, then a Chademo 30kW, then a SuperCharger) and still made it to work late despite having 6 hours to charge and drive to work, I have instilled a sense of "charge first, questions later" policy and attitude toward charging.

    I attach TeslaFi excerpts of my above mentioned bad experience:
    Screen Shot 2016-12-28 at 11.10.16 AM redacted.png Screen Shot 2016-12-28 at 11.15.55 AM redacted.png
    (As you can see, leaving Manteca SuperCharger at 4:20AM on a commute morning, I'd never make it to work in Mountain View for a 6AM start time on time, which I did not.)

    Whenever I park anywhere, I want to park at the most appropriate charging, such as a fast charger such as Chademo (nothing else exists right now?), or if failing that, any type of Level 2. Whenever I am on the road, I want to top up at a fast charger of any type (Chademo, SuperCharger that is convenient), so that I don't have trouble making it to my next SuperCharger. As Bjorn said in his video, the Tesla Model S 60 battery means that you have to fill in between SuperCharger stops with Chademo stops everywhere you go to make it safely, and I learned that the hard way when a Chademo failed to work. That is my current situation, with my 60. So, now, I stop at every convenient fast charging option and get some there no matter what unless I am absolutely certain I can make it to the next SuperCharger. By the way, this "absolutely certain" calculation has had the Fremont Supercharger in the middle of the calculation for most of my trips, and for more than half the time I've owned my car, that meant that I could NOT charge at Fremont, since that SuperCharger has been out of commission for that period of time. That means topping up even more.

    I have not yet had the delight of a destination charger available to me, but if and when I ever do run into that situation, I will make full use of it.

    I love the idea of low cost EVSE's (EVSE means charger plug thing; ok, let's address this first.) EVSE: It is defined in Charging station - Wikipedia as "electric vehicle supply equipment". That's vague. What I want to say is prettymuch in the Wiki's title: "Charging Station". I'll use "charging station" from now on. Ok, back to my discussion ...

    I love the idea of low cost charging stations, such as at CalTech in Pasadena Free Destination Charging: 50x L2 80A Stations @ Caltech, Pasadena, CA , and more of this should be done, where there are literally so many of the charging stations installed that they are inexpensive, plentiful, and you can park there as long as you like, but they do offer relatively slow charging. That's ok for me for destination chargers, as long as it is usefully fast enough.

    So, that brings me back to what to do when there are limited charging spots. I like the "promotional" idea of "if it's full, that means you need more" that the original poster has. But, around where I live, most people are already aware of electric vehicles, a little. So, it becomes more of an etiquette question.

    If I or anyone shows up in a long range P100D fresh from home on their 72amp charger with 65% left, that's ~65kWh, but with limitations, more like 55kWh-60kWh -- that's more range than my Model S 60 fully charged! They definitely don't need to use a rare and valuable Leaf or Bolt parking spot.

    But, if I or anyone shows up in my medium range 60 fresh from home on my 48 amp charger with only 35% state of charge, which means about 35kWh, compared to the 100D who came in with 55kWh left, I am ape bat nuts scared that I won't make it to the next SuperCharger or home in time to charge, so I'm going to plug in. Yes, I know, 35kWh is more than a Leaf has, but one or two errands, and considering that I can't afford to live close in (hence the 60), and I have an hour or two commute to get home and that quickly depletes my 35kWh left, especially if I'm at 22kWh at some next errand somewhere, and despite me having more left than a Leaf 30 even has, I'm personally not looking at it that way, but in my what-if way. That extra 5, 10, 20, or 30 miles range I could pick up plugged into a Level 2 or Level 3 charger would really make that extra difference for me between having to scram around for charging options with special stopovers and added time costs, and maybe be put into +1 hour rush hour traffic as double and triple punishment, and just not having to worry about it at all.

    So, while it may seem that "all those long range Teslas shouldn't be taking the spots of short range Leafs", first of all, short range Leafs are short range, so they should understand that when they buy their vehicles, and second of all, there are many, many, many Teslas on the road that are not long range at all, and are simply medium range. Leaf is about to come out with their own 60 pack, putting them in the medium range category.

    Here's my range categories:

    ~100 miles: Short range. All current Leafs.
    ~200 miles: Medium range. Tesla 60, Leaf 60, Chevy Bolt, Model 3 lowest cost tiers.
    ~300 miles: Long range. Tesla 85, Tesla 90, Tesla 100, and highest Model 3 cost tiers.

    Honestly, I don't know where the Tesla 70 & 75 fall. I bet it's closer to Medium than Long. Also, some of the medium Model 3 tiers will also be wobblers.

    But what all this means is that it is fair game for all but the most wealthy Tesla 85+ cars to get to the slow chargers (Level 2 and below). The etiquette should therefore be more nuanced: "How badly do you need a charge right now?" "How much do you really need to add right now?" This can be any amount for any size battery for any type of vehicle, based entirely on their destination distance, charging options on the way there and once there and coming back, and current state of charge, not on what type of vehicle they have and their current battery size. A lot of that is determined by their current battery size, however, and that is clearly an admission of something.

    If a Leaf 30 owner walks to the back of a Tesla and sees a "60", they ought to be more understanding, if a bit jealous, today, and while the question can still be asked "do you need to charge?", it often is a yes. The Leaf 60 will be on equal footing to the Tesla 60 and Model 3 200 mile ranger (50? 60?). On the other hand, if the Leaf 60 or Tesla 60 owner walks back and sees a Tesla "90" on the back, then they can legitimately ask the Tesla owner, "Do you really need to charge now?" and have that conversation. It gets even more interesting when a Leaf 20 owner walks back to the back of a Tesla and sees the P110D emblem emblazoned on the back of the brand new Model X without even license plates, clogging up a particularly slow (6kW) Level 2 J1772 charger: they probably don't need to be using that charger, at all, especially if there's no well worn hitch plugged in the hitch receptacle.
     
  18. Tomasz

    Tomasz Member

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    I'm sorry, but unless that back of the car will show remaining range your reasoning is completely bogus.

    Why would you think it is appropriate to let Tesla 60 @95%SOC sit there and charge while owner of Tesla P100D @2%SOC deserves a kick? You either ask everybody or no one.
     
  19. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you bought the wrong car. Driving a Tesla shouldn't be this stressful. Unless you bought a used 60 that's really a 60, I think you would be much happier if you unlocked your 60 to a 75. Or bought a 90. Youre using the wrong tool for the job.
     
  20. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #20 Ulmo, Dec 28, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
    Yup, fair point. This point is fairer once the Model 3 comes out, and I can swap my Model S in for a longer range Model 3.

    I didn't know how tight the 60 would make my trips compared to the 85. At first, I did most my calculations using 85 and 90 ranges, but when my finances got a squeeze, I thought "60 must be good enough". Furthermore, I can be more fastidious about always charging to 100% on my 60 in the future, which is OK in a 60 that has a 75 battery. Plus, now that I'm memorizing all the Chademo locations, I can drop in to them as needed.

    Given $9,000 to upgrade to 75 battery, I can better use that $9,000 toward the $10,000 upgrade to make the car self-driving, and I can do more work while the car drives, freeing up some of my time, and the self-driving protocols will use less energy than my active driver driving styles. This will be a better value than upgrading to 75 battery for the same price, and the range will be even better, considering a self driving Tesla can drop me off and go charge itself somewhere while I'm at work or an errand, and come back to me with more battery charge level than if I was driving and parking myself. (Making me drive the same way a self driving Tesla will drive would put me to sleep, and I would not be a safer driver that way.)

    I'll probably have the $10,000 available at the same time the self-driving capability becomes available (approximately 12 - 20 months from today). I'll have to weigh between upgrading to self-driving and upgrading to a Model X 90D.
    I agree 100%, but it becomes a sort of probability thing; all those pissed off Leaf 20 owners will have to realize they need to be more understanding, and yet, if they walk to the back of the car and see a 60, they can weigh the probabilities of it being worthwhile to ask them if they need to charge vs. asking a 100 if they need to charge. It's a different likely outcome, despite what you said being true about the state of charge.

    I like the cool idea you made me have: a charging % indicator on the charge station that shows other future potential chargees the state of charge of the current vehicle, and possibly other information, like kWh charge level. That should be implemented industry wide, on ChargePoint, EVGO, Tesla SuperChargers, HPWC's, etc. It's kind of not no one's business: if you're in line, it's useful to know. Of course, many Tesla 85 owners will consider "20kWh a buffer-only zone, not to be used", and many Leafs will see "20kWh" as full, so that can have some bad side.
     

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