Hurricane Harvey fallout - Gas queues in Dallas - Where is my EV?

[Khan3]

Thanks for the personal insight @ion_1 . I really need to figure out a better power/transport disaster plan than the one i have now.

The other thing i worry about is ... EV's and flooding ... I know we shouldnt be driving through water in the first place, but if you do it in an M3 do you risk electrocution? or is everything sealed tight? (in which case it would be more disaster resistant than an ICE vehicle driving through water?)

 

[Khan3]

found some good answers here:

https://www.quora.com/What-would-ha...accident-with-the-driver-and-passengers-in-it

 

[T34ME]

Which is more likely that you will be without electricity to easily charge your EV or that you will be without fuel to operate your ICE?

The reality is that ICE is actually better to have in a natural disaster situation than an EV.... and by a long ways too.

As excited as I am for my M3, I would tend to think that electrical outages are more of a problem then gas shortages during an emergency.

How do the gas pumps operate without electricity? Most ICE stations I know don't have emergency generators. And if ICE stations can bring in emergency generators to operate in disasters. so can SuperCharger stations.

My EV will sit in my garage with a minimum 80% charge all the time (100% if I know a disaster is approaching). Not so with an ICE that may be on near empty. I'll take my EV over an ICE in a disaster, anytime.

 

[voip-ninja]

How do the gas pumps operate without electricity? Most ICE stations I know don't have emergency generators. And if ICE stations can bring in emergency generators to operate in disasters. so can SuperCharger stations.

My EV will sit in my garage with a minimum 80% charge all the time (100% if I know a disaster is approaching). Not so with an ICE that may be on near empty. I'll take my EV over an ICE in a disaster, anytime.

The problem you describe is with being reliant on the distribution network, you are right, pumps need electricity to operate, however they are less likely to be without power than your residence.

Gasoline has lasted as long as it has as the fuel of choice because it stores a ton of energy in a tiny space. With stabilizers in really good containers fuel is good for about 1 year before it starts losing octane... at about the 2 year mark it is hit or miss if it will burn properly or if you'd even want to put it in your vehicle and worry about damaging the fuel system.

I keep 20 gallons on hand and make a point to rotate it out about every six months.

 

[voip-ninja]

If you've taken the time to install the Powerwall, doesn't it typically isolate your house/system from the grid if there's no power coming in from outside?

Isn't that the whole point of a Net Metering system? To be able to live "off the grid"?


EDIT:

Maybe we should get this guy on here to let us know how he did it:
73-year-old Tesla Powerwall owner powers through South Australia’s state-wide blackout without even knowing

If the powerwall has bypass switching then it would shut off back feed of the utility network and allow the powerwall to still function... however power walls are relatively low power devices and couldn't do much more than feed a couple of 20 amp circuits on your home.

A situation where someone has a couple of power walls hooked up to provide charging of their car at night from solar power they captured during the day is a rarity and you would need at least 3 power walls to store enough juice to charge a Tesla at anything approaching a "fast" charge rate.

This is also extremely expensive.

And finally, without rewiring other circuits in your house, the power wall will only charge your car or whatever other essential you have, it won't feed power back to all of the other devices in the home you want to run during a power failure.

 

[voip-ninja]

Good idea. How and where do you store the fuel?

I bought steel NATO jerry cans made in Poland back when you could still get them at reasonable prices. I have four 5 gallon cans and a few 2.5 gallon cans. They sit on a heavy duty shelf in my tandem garage.

I just periodically top one of our cars off with one of them and then the next time I fuel up I fill those cans back up.

I add sea foam as a fuel stabilizer. The NATO cans are double walled and specifically designed for high performance long term storage of fuel.

 

[voip-ninja]

Seems the shut down does happen automatically if your system is connected to grid. That said, I would definitely prefer to install the bypass panel/rectifier instead of storing inflammable liquids at the residence. Seems like a safer and better outcome?

Sure, go nuts. When I looked into it, converting my rectifier so that my solar panels would continue powering things in the home during a power failure was an $8,000 proposition and that would only be set up to back feed the solar power to a few essential 20 amp circuits.

Adding a couple of huge battery racks of deep cycle marine batteries so that I would get some power generation in the evening or during cloudy weather was going to run another $3,000 plus installation.

You are worried about storing 20 gallons of gasoline in heavy duty double walled steel gas cans similar to what they use to transport fuel in war zones and you aren't worried about having hundreds of pounds of toxic batteries in your basement? OK.

 

[voip-ninja]

Or install a small wind turbine as well-- wind is huge in Texas. Look if you spend the money for an off the grid solution, it is like (but not the same in cost) for keeping a 50 gallon tank to store gas. It just means you are well prepared for a natural disaster. The only difference b/w stockpiling gas vs. battery with solar/wind turbine is the cost, and the everyday utility. Storing gas/petrol is great for a once in a decade, or once in two years storm for cars and generators. The battery/wind/solar solution can be used every day, on non storm days.

The issue isn't with no solar generation at night that would be solved with a micro wind turbine.

The issue is that, by law, your home power generation system can't backfeed the utility grid since doing so could kill some poor SOB working on the system during an outage.

I have a very sweet net metering deal with the public utility, so like 99% of residential solar users my system shuts down during a power outage and it wouldn't matter if I augmented it with a wind turbine.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

If the powerwall has bypass switching then it would shut off back feed of the utility network and allow the powerwall to still function... however power walls are relatively low power devices and couldn't do much more than feed a couple of 20 amp circuits on your home.

A situation where someone has a couple of power walls hooked up to provide charging of their car at night from solar power they captured during the day is a rarity and you would need at least 3 power walls to store enough juice to charge a Tesla at anything approaching a "fast" charge rate.

This is also extremely expensive.

And finally, without rewiring other circuits in your house, the power wall will only charge your car or whatever other essential you have, it won't feed power back to all of the other devices in the home you want to run during a power failure.

Yes, but my home is mostly natural gas for the "high-draw" appliances, so really all I'd be running would be the fridge and the (NG) hot water heater. If the natural gas is out, that's a different problem.


It's all expensive, and not all of us are doomsday prepping. I live near the downtown area of my town, outside a flood zone, 400 or so feet above sea level, and 45 miles from the coastline.

My biggest threat is a snow or ice storm. But chances are, if it's that bad, evacuating isn't an option, and the roads would suck, so there's not much point in range-charging anyway.

 

[voip-ninja]

Yes, but my home is mostly natural gas for the "high-draw" appliances, so really all I'd be running would be the fridge and the (NG) hot water heater. If the natural gas is out, that's a different problem.


It's all expensive, and not all of us are doomsday prepping. I live near the downtown area of my town, outside a flood zone, 400 or so feet above sea level, and 45 miles from the coastline.

My biggest threat is a snow or ice storm. But chances are, if it's that bad, evacuating isn't an option, and the roads would suck, so there's not much point in range-charging anyway.

It comes down to how much it costs vs the risk of under preparing vs the likelihood of something happening. Risk of zombie apocalypse extremely low where-as risk of some scary new infectious disease causing you to limit travel for a week is actually quite high.... relatively speaking.

They have entire risk assessment courses that deal with this stuff.

For me, the $10,000+ I was looking at to set up a bypass with batteries for essentials simply wasn't worth it when I could buy two solid 2,000 watt portable generators and a tandem switch for $900.

If my inverter craps out in 5 years I will look into what is available that would make running battery strings a little more affordable.

I have mostly gas appliances too, but you might be shocked at how much power some of the things in your home use. My gas furnace has an electric ignition and an electric cage fan to do forced air heating. I was shocked to find out that during the ignition and start up phase it pulls nearly 20 amps by itself.

 

[TexasTeslaRacing]

Co-Worker made this for all of us

 

[ModelNforNerd]

It comes down to how much it costs vs the risk of under preparing vs the likelihood of something happening.

They have entire risk assessment courses that deal with this stuff.

For me, the $10,000+ I was looking at to set up a bypass with batteries for essentials simply wasn't worth it when I could buy two solid 2,000 watt portable generators and a tandem switch for $900.

If my inverter craps out in 5 years I will look into what is available that would make running battery strings a little more affordable.

I have mostly gas appliances too, but you might be shocked at how much power some of the things in your home use. My gas furnace has an electric ignition and an electric cage fan to do forced air heating. I was shocked to find out that during the ignition and start up phase it pulls nearly 20 amps by itself.

For me, I just bought a house in April that was a complete flip, including the roof.

So for right now, the risk assessment for me is: it's not yet worth messing with a brand new roof to install a solar setup.

But if I do go that route, I know that most new solar systems (especially one with a Powerwall) have the ability to run off the grid.

(that's why in some buildings with newer PV systems, there are labels near the entrances that let EMS/firefighters know that a PV system is in use, and some circuits may still be energized) Some are being built now as redundancy in case of emergency, or as a supplement to cut back on the use of grid power.

 

[cziegler]

Of course, if you had a solar/Powerwall setup, you could be getting your house somewhat back in order right now, since the clouds are gone. And you wouldn't care as much about the gas station lines, because your car would be "filling up" from the sun.

Exactly! In my younger days, I was a first responder and I've been through a few of these natural disasters and solar with storage is the way to go. Heck, even during stormy weather, you'll still typically enjoy 10%-30% of the KWh generation that you'd experience on a sunny day. ICE gensets simply have too many dependencies; regular preventive maintenance and fuel needs are the two most challenging - do the math on the fuel needs, and you'll quickly see that when you are talking days and weeks versus hours, anything that needs transported fuel is very limited.

 

[bonnie]

Which is more likely that you will be without electricity to easily charge your EV or that you will be without fuel to operate your ICE?

I can easily store 20-30 gallons of fuel at any given time which is enough gas for me to get by for days or even a week or longer.

How will I be charging my EV if a storm knocks electrical out? I could trickle charge an EV with a pair of generators and after burning 2-3 gallons of gas in 4 hours perhaps restore 15 miles of range.

The reality is that ICE is actually better to have in a natural disaster situation than an EV.... and by a long ways too.

It's not a contest. I'm glad you have the ability to store that amount of fuel safely. Not everyone does.

 

[T34ME]

The problem you describe is with being reliant on the distribution network, you are right, pumps need electricity to operate, however they are less likely to be without power than your residence.

And SuperChargers will be just as available as ICE stations in an emergency because they are part of the distribution system and will become even more so in the next couple of years as EVs become the mode of transportation for the future. ICE and gas stations are dead technology as for as personal transportation is concerned. Time to adjust thinking about personal transportation.

 

[voip-ninja]

It's not a contest. I'm glad you have the ability to store that amount of fuel safely. Not everyone does.

My point is that storing 20 gallons of fuel is not a big deal and it's not some horrific accident waiting to happen.

Nearly everyone has been storing a similar amount of fuel in the tanks of the cars they park in their garages every night for going on 80 years now.

Your comment made me think of the scene in I, Robot where Bridgett Moynahan's character completely flips out that Will Smith has a motorcycle that runs on horrific terrifying gasoline, "you know gasoline EXPLODES, RIGHT!!".

Ha.

 

[voip-ninja]

And SuperChargers will be just as available as ICE stations in an emergency because they are part of the distribution system and will become even more so in the next couple of years as EVs become the mode of transportation for the future. ICE and gas stations are dead technology as for as personal transportation is concerned. Time to adjust thinking about personal transportation.

Hey wow, it IS a contest, who knew?

There are 6 supercharger stations in Colorado that is expanding to about 15 in the next 6-18 months.

By comparison there are 10,000 gas stations.

You lose.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Hey wow, it IS a contest, who knew?

There are 6 supercharger stations in Colorado that is expanding to about 15 in the next 6-18 months.

By comparison there are 10,000 gas stations.

You lose.

Why "you"? You don't have a Tesla? Are you not getting a Tesla? Your desire to counter everyone's willingness to have a green power setup and extol the virtues of storing fuel in containers leaves me wondering why you're even here.....


Also, some of us are subject to zoning/EPA regulations. Pretty sure I'd get nailed if I tried to store more than 10 gal outdoors in an unpermitted setup in my A1 residential district.

YMMV

 

[bonnie]

Hey wow, it IS a contest, who knew?

There are 6 supercharger stations in Colorado that is expanding to about 15 in the next 6-18 months.

By comparison there are 10,000 gas stations.

You lose.

I look at surviving a disaster as a team effort, not a contest.

There is currently room for both techs imo. As places to charge become less dependent on the grid and more plentiful, I'd probably say differently.

 

[voip-ninja]

Why "you"? You don't have a Tesla? Are you not getting a Tesla? Your desire to counter everyone's willingness to have a green power setup and extol the virtues of storing fuel in containers leaves me wondering why you're even here.....


Also, some of us are subject to zoning/EPA regulations. Pretty sure I'd get nailed if I tried to store more than 10 gal outdoors in an unpermitted setup in my A1 residential district.

YMMV

Ah the "why are you here" if you aren't part of the groupthink unit comment. Was wondering when that one would pop up.

I'm here because there should be a good counter to the people that think Elon Musk urinates lemonade and rainbows or unicorns shoot out of his butt when he farts.

I'm really here because the Model 3 has piqued my curiosity and I put a reservation in on day 1. I'm here because Tesla doesn't build "boring" or "slow" cars... which, to date, are the only EVs everyone other than Tesla builds.

I'm sure it causes real angst in the echo chamber here when someone is pragmatic or a realist about EVs and green energy but I'm pretty sure I haven't done anything that will get me banned yet.

Also, as previously disclosed I have a 7,000 watt solar installation on my house. I didn't do it to save the planet or because I'm committed to green energy. I did it as a hedge against electric inflation knowing we would be in the house for 20 years... not to mention the huge federal tax credit (I pay crap tons of taxes, might as well get them to throw ME a bone once in a while) and what the local utility paid. $33,000 system installed for $10,000? Sign me up.