HW3 and WiFi Networks

[mswlogo]

Way ahead of you. I tried a neighbor (same ISP) and it failed in the same way BUT it seemed to work at first when parked in their driveway (some distance from the router), but failed a few minutes later.

I was clutching at straws. I know another friend whose car does connect correctly (a new Model 3 with HW3). I need to go over there (but it's 40 miles away). I guess I need to make a housecall.

Are you connecting on 2.4Ghz or 5.0Ghz WIFI?

I always split mine to be on separate SSID so I can control what each device connects to. Some applications are better for one vs the other.
5.0 Ghz has higher bandwidth and less interference. 2.4Ghz has longer reach.

I also run apps (wifi scanners) on my phone to find the least busy channels for 2.4Ghz rather than let Router pick channels dynamically for you.

Also setting channels too wide, fixed or dynamically, (for more bandwidth) can be more subject to failure and interference.

Reliable slow connections are often better than fast unstable ones.

On better routers you can go in and look at the logs see why it's dropping.

 

[SilverString]

This is an odd story... something is going unexplained. My 2019 MS does suck on the 5 gig AC band as well but it works... disconnects a lot so I just use an N band access point (not a router) for the car and it's more than enough for what you need for the car at home.

Not sure what the HW3 part has to do with anything - the wireless is contained in the passenger side rearview mirror in the MS and is, I believe a PCI bus dual band chipset from LG. Not sure what is in the MX but a quick scan with something like Angry IP scanner will tell you.

Somebody else suggested this but have you tried connecting to the N band at home? If that works then you can eliminate your router or ISP as the problem. Remember that although you call it a router what you likely have is a router that also serves as a wireless access point, but it is two different components from the network view. If your second "router" is a WiFi router and you do not have both routing and DHCP turned off on the second unit then you would have a problem like you describe.

 

[Master Chief]

Interesting that you bring up this subject. I am having a similar problem with my 2020 Model X purchased in December 2019. I am using a Ubiquiti Unifi Mesh AP inside my home. The Tesla is in the driveway and the signal must travel about 25-30 feet through my front wall which includes a full sized picture window.

When I brought my car home in the middle of December, I got probably four upgrades in rapid succession. Sitting in my driveway, I had no issue downloading and installing firmware updates.

Last week I noticed the yellow icon indicating that there was a patch available. I tapped it, got the swirling circle and finally it timed out. The progress bar showed progression about half way on the download. I tried again. Same thing. Tried again and this time I tapped WiFi Configuration. I could see my SSID with the signal strength showing two of three "bars". Several APs around my neighborhood were showing up as three bars. Odd.

I came home yesterday with a second AP. I placed it in the room which used to be the attached garage so now there is a second AP which is about 4 feet from the front bumper of my MX.

I tried to connect to my SSID. Fail. The green checkmark would show up then disappear. I told the configurator to forget the wireless. I tried again by manually entering SSID, WPA2 and the passphrase. Fail. I brought in the error and googled it. Several hits said the Teslas didn't like 5.0 Ghz, so I changed my SSID to separate 2.4 and 5.0. No joy. I even tried to connect it to my iPhone's hot spot. Bzzzzzzt. Finally, after fooling around with it for a while longer, I dropped it for the night. Before I went to bed, I added a new Wireless Network with a new SSID (the Unifi series supports a total of four). This one, TMX was only on the 2.4 network.

I got up this morning and I went out to the car and tried to connect to TMX. Fail. Same thing, swirling circle, then it drops out.

But, wait, there's more. I noticed that the yellow icon was missing from my center screen. The car upgraded last night. Believe it or not. I reviewed the logs for my Unifi but there was no indication of downloading more than 10-20 kb of data. At my office, we also have the Unifi model APs.

Not sure if Tesla does not like Unifi APs. I could see that the Tesla uses an LG chipset with a MAC mfr code of cc:88:26.

Whatever happened, it was frustrating. And, for what it's worth, I connected flawlessly at my cabin which runs off of Viasat (aka Excede). I used the wireless which is built in to the Viasat receiver.

 

[jboy210]

Interesting that you bring up this subject. I am having a similar problem with my 2020 Model X purchased in December 2019. I am using a Ubiquiti Unifi Mesh AP inside my home. The Tesla is in the driveway and the signal must travel about 25-30 feet through my front wall which includes a full sized picture window.

When I brought my car home in the middle of December, I got probably four upgrades in rapid succession. Sitting in my driveway, I had no issue downloading and installing firmware updates.

Last week I noticed the yellow icon indicating that there was a patch available. I tapped it, got the swirling circle and finally it timed out. The progress bar showed progression about half way on the download. I tried again. Same thing. Tried again and this time I tapped WiFi Configuration. I could see my SSID with the signal strength showing two of three "bars". Several APs around my neighborhood were showing up as three bars. Odd.

I came home yesterday with a second AP. I placed it in the room which used to be the attached garage so now there is a second AP which is about 4 feet from the front bumper of my MX.

I tried to connect to my SSID. Fail. The green checkmark would show up then disappear. I told the configurator to forget the wireless. I tried again by manually entering SSID, WPA2 and the passphrase. Fail. I brought in the error and googled it. Several hits said the Teslas didn't like 5.0 Ghz, so I changed my SSID to separate 2.4 and 5.0. No joy. I even tried to connect it to my iPhone's hot spot. Bzzzzzzt. Finally, after fooling around with it for a while longer, I dropped it for the night. Before I went to bed, I added a new Wireless Network with a new SSID (the Unifi series supports a total of four). This one, TMX was only on the 2.4 network.

I got up this morning and I went out to the car and tried to connect to TMX. Fail. Same thing, swirling circle, then it drops out.

But, wait, there's more. I noticed that the yellow icon was missing from my center screen. The car upgraded last night. Believe it or not. I reviewed the logs for my Unifi but there was no indication of downloading more than 10-20 kb of data. At my office, we also have the Unifi model APs.

Not sure if Tesla does not like Unifi APs. I could see that the Tesla uses an LG chipset with a MAC mfr code of cc:88:26.

Whatever happened, it was frustrating. And, for what it's worth, I connected flawlessly at my cabin which runs off of Viasat (aka Excede). I used the wireless which is built in to the Viasat receiver.

Teslas do not issues with all Unifi Access Points. We have 3 of them in our house including one right above our Teslas in the garage. It does a great job of updating the Model 3 and X. We use Unifi AC Pro Access Points powered over Ethernet from Unifi switches

 

[Beta V]

I fixed it. I went around to my neighbors and begged a few passwords and discovered that they all had the same problem. I could not connect to any of them for more than a few seconds. BUT when I went into Seattle to make a sidewalk visit with my daughter (we stand on the sidewalk and she stands on the porch and we talk). There I WAS able to connect and hold the connection. She has Comcast. We have Frontier. Nah, it couldn't be provider-specific, that's nuts. I ordered a NICE router anyway from Amazon and the TP-Link AX3000 showed up today. Installation was easy. And it worked. First time, every time. There was something about the Frontier router (which has NO antennas) that prevented the car from seeing it (but only since they installed HW3. And no, I still don't know why the Frontier router failed to remain connected. The rest of the network is identical.

 

[jboy210]

I fixed it. I went around to my neighbors and begged a few passwords and discovered that they all had the same problem. I could not connect to any of them for more than a few seconds. BUT when I went into Seattle to make a sidewalk visit with my daughter (we stand on the sidewalk and she stands on the porch and we talk). There I WAS able to connect and hold the connection. She has Comcast. We have Frontier. Nah, it couldn't be provider-specific, that's nuts. I ordered a NICE router anyway from Amazon and the TP-Link AX3000 showed up today. Installation was easy. And it worked. First time, every time. There was something about the Frontier router (which has NO antennas) that prevented the car from seeing it (but only since they installed HW3. And no, I still don't know why the Frontier router failed to remain connected. The rest of the network is identical.

Glad it got fixed. Seems strange though. Did you know is anyone turned up the power/signal strength on the router? That is tempting, but is usually the road to frustration as in strong signal at car, but still cannot connect.

 

[Beta V]

Glad it got fixed. Seems strange though. Did you know is anyone turned up the power/signal strength on the router? That is tempting, but is usually the road to frustration as in strong signal at car, but still cannot connect.

Nope, I had not touched the router in ages. Why would I? It worked fine with the Model X prior to the HW3 change.

 

[Master Chief]

@Beta V, you "got it working" but you likely didn't "fix it". I have been an electronics and IT tech for over 50 years and I know what I know. Yours isn't working right and mine isn't working right. Mine started working and yours started working but I bet that we haven't heard the end of it.

One thing that frustrates me a bit with Tesla is their release notes are not really release notes. A release note describes the changes made with each release. Their release notes are basically an Executive Summary of the things they hoped to accomplish with their first iteration of a series of a significant update.

I am not being critical of them releasing an update and then fixing the fixes. That is how software goes, but I am critical of them not letting us know what each tweak did.

If there is a page that shows this, then great... give us the link.

 

[SilverString]

@Beta V, you "got it working" but you likely didn't "fix it". I have been an electronics and IT tech for over 50 years and I know what I know. Yours isn't working right and mine isn't working right. Mine started working and yours started working but I bet that we haven't heard the end of it.

One thing that frustrates me a bit with Tesla is their release notes are not really release notes. A release note describes the changes made with each release. Their release notes are basically an Executive Summary of the things they hoped to accomplish with their first iteration of a series of a significant update.

I am not being critical of them releasing an update and then fixing the fixes. That is how software goes, but I am critical of them not letting us know what each tweak did.

If there is a page that shows this, then great... give us the link.

It is pretty simple really, the AC (5 gig band) does not work well in some Tesla's. In my 2019 MS (HW3/FSD) the wifi chip is an LG Innotek with the antenna in the passenger side rear view mirror. My Aerohive (AC1200 bandwidth) access point needs close-in line-of-site proximity to connect properly with the AC band. I have a slower Dlink AC band (750 maybe?) in another home and it connects fine when close by and I have seen upwards of 60mb connection speeds using it. That is pretty poor considering my iPhone gets around 200 in the same spot.

The first few hex digits of your car's WiFi MAC address will reveal if yours too is an LG Innotek chipset, which judging by your experiences AFTER you got your upgrade seems like it might be. I doubt it's any different than the HW3 board in my MS. My car came new with HW3 in March 2019, so I have never had anything different. I have worked with it a lot in this area and I do have a professional background in Telecom. Finally I just installed a reliable outdoor N band TP Link access point in my garage. Cheap and 100% reliable with more than enough bandwidth to do anything the Tesla needs to do.

If I am correct there is likely little to nothing that can be done short of replacing the chipset on the HW3 board. Maybe a software fix but unlikely.

 

[jboy210]

It is pretty simple really, the AC (5 gig band) does not work well in some Tesla's. In my 2019 MS (HW3/FSD) the wifi chip is an LG Innotek with the antenna in the passenger side rear view mirror. My Aerohive (AC1200 bandwidth) access point needs close-in line-of-site proximity to connect properly with the AC band. I have a slower Dlink AC band (750 maybe?) in another home and it connects fine when close by and I have seen upwards of 60mb connection speeds using it. That is pretty poor considering my iPhone gets around 200 in the same spot.

The first few hex digits of your car's WiFi MAC address will reveal if yours too is an LG Innotek chipset, which judging by your experiences AFTER you got your upgrade seems like it might be. I doubt it's any different than the HW3 board in my MS. My car came new with HW3 in March 2019, so I have never had anything different. I have worked with it a lot in this area and I do have a professional background in Telecom. Finally I just installed a reliable outdoor N band TP Link access point in my garage. Cheap and 100% reliable with more than enough bandwidth to do anything the Tesla needs to do.

If I am correct there is likely little to nothing that can be done short of replacing the chipset on the HW3 board. Maybe a software fix but unlikely.

Does the AP board version (ex. HW3) effect the Wif?. I assumed that wifi was tied to the version of the MCU. 1 versus 2. Your S has MCU 2 since it was made after March 2018. My X has MCU2 also, but AP 2.5 and suffers from weak Wifi connectivity.

To cure this, like you I put an Access Point in the garage. After that it works great on either the 2.4 or 5Ghz bands.

 

[Cosmacelf]

So in all of this the OP doesn't mention physically how far away their router(s) are from the car. Tesla WiFi is generally not very strong so I always recommend having an access point or extender IN the garage.

If your AP isn't in the garage, you should log into your router(s) and make sure you have the 2.4 Ghz band active. Some APs will be set up to only have the 5 Ghz band active and that does not penetrate very far.

WiFi setup is complicated in suburban houses and especially apartment/condos because you have lots of interference from neighbors. And once you start changing settings (or not changing settings if the default settings don't make sense), you have to know what's going on or else you'll make things worse.

For those interested in learning more about how to setup WiFi properly, I've written an explainer here: WiFi best practices for high speed connectivity.

 

[SilverString]

Does the AP board version (ex. HW3) effect the Wif?. I assumed that wifi was tied to the version of the MCU. 1 versus 2. Your S has MCU 2 since it was made after March 2018. My X has MCU2 also, but AP 2.5 and suffers from weak Wifi connectivity.

To cure this, like you I put an Access Point in the garage. After that it works great on either the 2.4 or 5Ghz bands.

I can't say if it's the AP version or what, but since the OP said it began after the upgrade and I've only ever had HW3, I made that leap of logic. Your info does seem to contradict it however... did you notice if it's the LG chipset in your HW2.5 vehicle?

 

[jboy210]

I can't say if it's the AP version or what, but since the OP said it began after the upgrade and I've only ever had HW3, I made that leap of logic. Your info does seem to contradict it however... did you notice if it's the LG chipset in your HW2.5 vehicle?

When I look up the Model X MAC address and it lists it as registered to LG Innotek.

Our Model 3 MAC address also shows registered to LG Innotek.

 

[SilverString]

When I look that up the mac address it lists it registered to LG Innotek

so not HW3 related I would say

 

[SilverString]

Glad it got fixed. Seems strange though. Did you know is anyone turned up the power/signal strength on the router? That is tempting, but is usually the road to frustration as in strong signal at car, but still cannot connect.

Yes it is problematic most especially in high density WiFi areas. Unless you are using open source firmware like Tomato or DDWRT there is rarely an option for it. Performance can be denigrated if you do not know how to place them.

 

[jboy210]

Yes it is problematic most especially in high density WiFi areas. Unless you are using open source firmware like Tomato or DDWRT there is rarely an option for it. Performance can be denigrated if you do not know how to place them.

Agreed. I think of it has having a conversation at a distance. Turning up the transmit power is like giving the Access point/router a megaphone. The car can hear it better, but the Access point/router still can't hear the car transmitting its response at a whisper. Worse yet that Access Point/Router can talk over other devices causing packet collisions, re-transmissions, and other issues.

I find it always best to drop more Access Points or maybe a mesh.

 

[SilverString]

Agreed. I think of it has having a conversation at a distance. Turning up the transmit power is like giving the Access point/router a megaphone. The car can hear it better, but the Access point/router still can't hear the car transmitting its response at a whisper. Worse yet that Access Point/Router can talk over other devices causing packet collisions, re-transmissions, and other issues.

I find it always best to drop more Access Points or maybe a mesh.

Right. That being said the problem being experienced by the OP could be just this. He said he changed nothing but that does not prevent someone else from bringing up another 5 GHz AP somewhere nearby.

There are some apps for troubleshooting this with a cell phone or mobil laptop. Lots of enterprise WiFi roll outs do this during initial placement to get maximum coverage and bandwidth.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Right. That being said the problem being experienced by the OP could be just this. He said he changed nothing but that does not prevent someone else from bringing up another 5 GHz AP somewhere nearby.

There are some apps for troubleshooting this with a cell phone or mobil laptop. Lots of enterprise WiFi roll outs do this during initial placement to get maximum coverage and bandwidth.

From my WiFi page:

You need some sort of WiFi sniffer tool to see how good signal strengths are around your house either before or after you install your new WiFi network. The best device to run a sniffer on is your smart phone since it is also the weakest WiFi device you will be using. You want to design your network for the weakest device.

If you have an Apple iPhone, you only have one choice, and that's to use Apple's Airport Utility app, which has a secret built in WiFi analyzer. Click here for a tutorial on how to set this app up to analyze your WiFi environment.

For Android devices, use WiFi Analyzer.

Both analyzers show signal strength in db values. The higher number the better, but since these values are negative numbers, be aware that a -50 db signal strength is higher and better than a -70 db signal strength.

Ideally you want 5 GHZ signal strength to be in the -60's or better. Numbers in the -70's are acceptable, but when signal strength degrades to the -80's, that's marginal. Add an AP if you have signals in the -80's for commonly used areas of the house.

 

[jboy210]

From my WiFi page:

You need some sort of WiFi sniffer tool to see how good signal strengths are around your house either before or after you install your new WiFi network. The best device to run a sniffer on is your smart phone since it is also the weakest WiFi device you will be using. You want to design your network for the weakest device.

If you have an Apple iPhone, you only have one choice, and that's to use Apple's Airport Utility app, which has a secret built in WiFi analyzer. Click here for a tutorial on how to set this app up to analyze your WiFi environment.

For Android devices, use WiFi Analyzer.

Both analyzers show signal strength in db values. The higher number the better, but since these values are negative numbers, be aware that a -50 db signal strength is higher and better than a -70 db signal strength.

Ideally you want 5 GHZ signal strength to be in the -60's or better. Numbers in the -70's are acceptable, but when signal strength degrades to the -80's, that's marginal. Add an AP if you have signals in the -80's for commonly used areas of the house.

Agreed. I used WiFi Analyzer to help determine I needed an Access Point in my garage. Even when I had an access point in the room next to the garage I was only seeing -60dB. Since putting an AC Pro in the garage I am seeing -25dB on 2.4Ghz and -35dB on 5Ghz at the cars.

BTW, nice guide. I liked your recommendation of Ubiquiti. We run a full Ubiquiti network at home.

 

[Master Chief]

Mine is LG Innotek and my Unifi Mesh AP is about 10' max from my rear view mirror.