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HWY101 accident..

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by _jmk, Mar 31, 2018.

  1. _jmk

    _jmk Member

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  2. Kuro68k

    Kuro68k Active Member

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    Same old story. AP lures the driver into a false sense of security, ends up killing him.
     
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  3. J1mbo

    J1mbo Active Member

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    Hands off for at least 6 seconds, repeatedly ignored warnings to put hands on :(
     
  4. azred

    azred Active Member

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    After the Uber fatality in Tempe that showed the driver checked out, there was a lot of discussion about research showing how quickly most people lose focus in situations where our driving duties have been largely assumed by the car. Of course in a perfect world we wouldn't lose focus, but I can even recall several times over the years where I have found myself almost hypnotized by "dumb" cruise control.

    I won't pay the money for AP or EAP software until I am convinced it is so good that even if I lose focus, it will prevent a senseless catastrophe like the 101 accident. Maybe that day will be never come and that's OK with me. I like driving and I don't have bug bucks invested in the software.
     
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  5. azred

    azred Active Member

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    #5 azred, Mar 31, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2018
    I think if you could have asked that driver if he had a false sense of security, he'd probably answer no. Unless he lived in a cave, he surely had seen the media all over every accident involving EAP. So I would bet he was well aware that EAP is far from idiot-proofed yet.

    I think he would agree that he lost focus and as I noted above that's quite a different matter. I teach a college class that lasts 100 minutes and I don't blame students for losing focus several times during the class. They aren't lazy, disinterested or any other bad descriptor. They are just behaving in the way most human brains seem to work. Even without EAP we can all remember times when we were hypnotized by the road. Add in EAP plus a lengthy time behind the wheel and you have a recipe for disaster, if that technology can occasionally make fatal errors.

    I understand that legally he is probably 100% at fault. But I'm not going to judge his mistake.
     
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  6. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Senior Software Engineer

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    this is the crap narrative that tesla wants to spread which is 100% false.

    But like i said this very deceptively crafted sentence. if i drove on AP for 15 minutes and i was alerted to put my hands on the wheel 2 minutes in.

    It would fit tesla's specially crafted statement.

    It makes it look like user was warned and didn't respond by putting their hands on the wheel but its completely false. The AP drove him straight into the barrier with no warning.

    Job complete, because journalism today is bottom of the barrel, journalists wouldn't even use their brain and write half hearted articles leading to tesla narrative spreading.

    News media:

    "In the latest crash, Tesla said Autopilot's adaptive cruise control was in the minimum following distance setting and that the driver had received several visual and one audible hands-on warning as reminders to keep his hands on the wheel prior to crashing into the center divider. " CNBC

    "Tesla Says Autopilot Was On Before Fatal Model X Crash, But That Driver Didn’t Abide Warnings" - Jalopink

    " Apple engineer Wei “Walter” Huang, had his hands off the steering wheel and was not responding to warnings to re-take control." - TheVerge

    "As it turns out, Tesla said the driver had Autopilot on with the adaptive cruise control follow-distance set to minimum. However, it seems the driver ignored the vehicle’s warnings to take back control." - TechCrunch
     
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  7. croman

    croman Active Member

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    It's disgusting that Tesla is shifting blame to the driver if the system drove him into the barrier.

    Hand nags come even if your hands are on the wheel. Tesla's method of detection is stupid lazy and inaccurate.

    If ap saw that as a lane, it's both the driver's and Tesla's fault.
     
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  8. avoigt

    avoigt Active Member

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    100% of the responsibility is with the driver and that remains to be true unless we have FSD Systems. This fact can‘t be argued against.

    It does not matter what level of self driving is engaged and what the system can do or not it’s just very simple that the driver is ALWAYS in charge as we do not have full self driving systems yet. It’s a fact that the driver did not followed the rules of engagement and is fully responsible for what happened.

    To add to this even with this fatal accident the Tesla system is proven to be 3,7 times more safe than a human driver.

    Given that I am 3,7 Times more likely to survive in a Tesla with AP if I follow the rules. If you don’t you should not be surprised if you get into accidents and dangerous situations.

    It’s for me therefore a very easy decision that I will use always Tesla AP with Full attention to the road as this will help me to avoid any kind of accidents and keeps me more safe than other drivers.
     
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  9. drewg123

    drewg123 Member

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    I don't know about you, but I get "hands on wheel" nags every single interval when my hands *are* on the wheel. This is because my touch is just too light for the sensor to detect, and I have to resort to a light "flick" of the wheel to clear the nag. I use the same pressure I would in a car w/o autosteer or LKA (eg, my old 2006 prius); it just doesn't register in my MX.
     
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  10. croman

    croman Active Member

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    You're wrong about fault. Its the law and it can't really be debated that AP2 is not working adequately to provide the safety to which you blindly ascribe.
     
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  11. alcibiades

    alcibiades Member

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    I don't come around the forums much any more because of this sort of nonsense. Like you, I have my hand on the wheel even with AP on, and I routinely am given the light warning that my hand needs to be put on the wheel.

    Tesla in their release clearly states hands "NOT DETECTED" and people interpret that to be equivalent to "HANDS NOT ON WHEEL". This is straight out of community college level informal logic classes. My 14 year old is smarter than this. She sees the Xyzal commercials that say "as effective in hour 24 as in hour 1" and she knows that means it might be equally ineffective in both hours 1 and 24.

    But here instead we have the chorus of voices that makes the fallacious leap from "undetected" to "not there". Why is that? Well, two possible explanations: 1, the members of the chorus are bad at reasoning or 2, the members of the chorus are dishonest.
     
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  12. croman

    croman Active Member

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    Don't expect the locals to engage their brain and use logic when it comes to reflexive Tesla apologizing. The law is clear that Tesla and the driver share fault but people are disagreeing as if they know what they are talking about but it doesn't matter what REALITY is when Tesla apologists come around.

    They still think AP1 = AP2 even though AP2 doesn't do a lot of what AP1 does. It doesn't matter what reality is, it just matters that Tesla is sunshine and rainbows!
     
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  13. alcibiades

    alcibiades Member

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    Actually, it's working "as designed".

    as designed.jpeg
     
  14. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    The driver is the one driving, end of story.
     
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  15. croman

    croman Active Member

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    Keep telling yourself that's the end of the story. Ignorance isn't reality. Tesla puts a product out there and it doesn't designed as functioned, so they are liable too. Sorry if that doesn't jive with your interpretation.
     
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  16. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    I'm just stating the facts. The driver was not using the system the way it was designed and chose to ignore multiple warnings to use it properly, and unfortunately, this is the result.
     
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  17. croman

    croman Active Member

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    You are making unfounded assumptions. The driver isn't here to defend himself against the slander too. Tesla's facts are merely that the system didn't recognize his hands not that he really using it properly.
     
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  18. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    Again, the facts here state that there was no driver input. If you want to interpret that as a simultaneous system failure of the AP system and the steering system, feel free. I, however, interpret it as the more likely event of no input by the driver.
     
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  19. tessellator

    tessellator Member

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    I think the driver’s family has no case against tesla in a court of law - All of the instructions and warnings say to keep hands on the wheel the entire time and not to rely on autopilot for avoiding everything. The driver had a unobstructed view of the barrier and should have reacted.
    The court of public opinion is a different story however, because most people will be happy to lay the blame on tesla’s feet because it fits a narrative established by the Uber crash.

    I really hope tesla does a good job of explaining and handling this without taking blame which ultimately rests on the inattentive driver.
     
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  20. croman

    croman Active Member

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    Cowards unwilling to actually disagree with substantive comments.
     
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