Hydrogen - Really? (Man maths & research involved)

[davidmc]

The new "anti" EV talk I seem to get now is "Hydrogen is the way forward", "Its greener", "you can go further" & "My mate's dad told me its the future" blah blah blah

Yes and no is my answer, but never really looked into it before. Planes i can kind of see a yes, Large lorry too. But smaller vehicles and Cars not so much. We just need to produce more of the "Green" hydrogen.

I see this big Hydrogen push as a way for the oil/gas industry to cash in and not lose out by fluffing/ignoring the side affects. Yes, Electricity producers are the same.

Note - The below is my view and research on this subject, so please take this with a hand full of salt.

Enjoy reading and have fun laughing, crying, discussing, arguing, debating & shooting down! (Just be polite to all)

Also the Below is looking at cars and not any other means of transport. Also not taking into account "renewables" in the averages below

First lets look at Hydrogen. There are 3 "main" types. Grey, Blue & Green (There are others but these seem to be the main ones)

Grey - 95% of todays global production. Produced using and splitting Natural Gas. CO2 is not captured but released back into the atmospher (9.3kg of CO2 per kg of Hydrogen produced)
Blue - As Grey, but the CO2 is captured and stored underground via industrial carbon capture and storage (CSS) (although in the real world around 10-20% cannot be captured)
Green - Produced by electrolyser technologies (approx 1% of global produced Hydrogen - Co2 not produced using Renewables)

Electricity used in the production of Hydrogen. 5 to 55kWh used to produce 1kg of Hydrogen. No clear answer on this so assumed an average of 30kWh/kg.

Looking at whats available now - Toyota Mirai:

Toyota Mirai - info via Toyota and google search
Range	274​	miles per tank	342 NEDC (assume 80% real world)
Tank Size (kg)	5​	kg	to fill (approx)
Tank Size (Ltrs)	70.64​	Litres	1kg = 14.128litres - Liquid hydrogen conversion
	3.87​	Miles per ltr
5 to 55 kWh of electricity to produce 1 kg of hydrogen (Grey, Blue or Green)			Hard to find a true consumption rate
	30​	kWh/kg	Average taken
Hydrogen - 1kg = 14.128litres	2.12​	kWh/ltr
Toyota Mirai uses (Not taking losses etc into account)	150​	kWh per tank	From the production of Hydrogen noted above
Which works out at approx	1.82​	Miles per kwh

Usable Energy per Tank in a Mirai:

1 kg of hydrogen contains approx 33.33 kWh of usable energy

166.65​

kWh per tank (4.7kg tank - Mirai)

CO2 prodcued by a full tank in a Mirai (Grey, Blue & Green):

Grey Hydrogen - Produced by Natural GAS (approx 95% of global produced Hydrogen - Co2 not captured)
Emits about 9.3kg of CO2 per kg of hydrogen produced.
Toyota Mirai Co2 produced per tank (full tank)	43.71​	kg of Co2 (Grey Hydrogen)
Blue Hydrogen - Produced by Natural GAS (appox 4% of global producd Hydrogen - Co2 captured)
Around 10-20% of the generated CO2 cannot be captured.
Toyota Mirai produced per tank (full tank)	6.56​	kg of Co2 (Blue Hydrogen - Avg 15% of 9.3kg)
Green Hydrogen - Produced by electrolyser technologies (approx 1% of global producd Hydrogen - Co2 not produced using Renewables)
Toyota Mirai produced per tank	0.00​	kg of Co2

Looking at the CO2 emissions factor comparing the Mirai to a M3 (SR+ & LR)

Electricity
CO2 emission factor used is 0.309 kge / kWh, taken from BEIS (2018) 2018 Government GHG Conversion Factors
Renewables will produce less to 0kg/kWh
Toyota Mirai (150 kWh per tank)	46.35​	CO2 using 0.309kg/kwh
Tesla Model 3 SR (55kWh battery size)	16.995​	CO2 using 0.309kg/kwh
Tesla Model 3 LR (75kWh battery size)	23.175​	CO2 using 0.309kg/kwh

CO2 emissions per mile

CO2 used per mile (RW = Real World)
Toyota Mirai	0.169161​	kgCO2/Mile	274 miles per full tank
Tesla Model 3 SR	0.084975​	kgCO2/Mile	assume RW* 200 miles per 100%
Tesla Model 3 LR	0.082768​	kgCO2/Mile	assume RW* 280 miles per 100%

Also - The cost of a Hydrogen fuel station is around £2-3m per station. You could get a lot of 50-250kw chargers for that (assume £10k per rapid charge inc utilities thats around 300 units). And then there is the transort of the hydrogen to these stations that is needed either via pipe lines or tankers. Yes could be done on site via Solar/Wind to produce green hydrogen but that seems way off.

They also bang on about that they can fill the car up in 5mins. But they forget to tell you or didnt know that at the moment the station requires 10-20mins to "recharge" the pressure for the next vehicle.

Ps - feel free to use/alter

References for the above data & content:

50 shades of (grey and blue and green) hydrogen - Energy Cities

When discussing the future of energy, hydrogen is on everyone’s lips. You might have heard of some of the colours associated to hydrogen, and wondered […]

energy-cities.eu

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/726911/2018_methodology_paper_FINAL_v01-00.pdf

Toyota Mirai | Explore the Latest Range | Toyota UK

Discover the hydrogen-powered Mirai. With 0% emissions, impressive power and an irresistible driving experience, Mirai is pioneering the future of mobility.

www.toyota.co.uk

Universal Industrial Gases, Inc. ... Hydrogen Unit Conversion (gas, liquid)

hydrogen gas and liquid unit conversion tables - weight, gas volume, liquid volume (pounds, kilograms, standard cubic feet, standard cubic meters, gallons, liters)

www.uigi.com

google

 

[pgkevet]

Cost of supercharger stations depends on availability of power lines - start to put that cost into the equation for new stations and the price will scream upwards.
The real point about green hydrogen is the potential for a practical way to store excess power. In other words if we have more than enough renewable generators to allow for less windy and less sunny days we would have an awful lot of days when such as idle unless the power can be stored usefully. That then deals with the economic looses of power generation for conversion to H2.
The bigger issues with H2 power are the inefficiencies if used as internal combustion and the costs and longevity if used through fuel cells.
I'd love a fuel cell powered H2 car if there were enough refuelling places.
Of course, I'd really like one powered by Helium3

 

[Nick77]

Nothing wrong with electricity. It's reliable and we have the infrastructure already.

We just have to produce it cleanly, which is where fusion comes in. Once we crack that, which is getting closer every year, we can build facilities that will give us more power than we could ever need.

 

[Jason71]

In a discussion of hydrogen vehicles and blue vs green hydrogen in the comments section of a daily mail story on EV's one confused reader wrote.

"Isn't Hydrogen colourless?"

 

[sparkymark75]

Funny how people that only want to burn fossil fuels suddenly care about the environment and question where the components of batteries come from and how they are disposed off!

 

[davidmc]

Cost of supercharger stations depends on availability of power lines - start to put that cost into the equation for new stations and the price will scream upwards.
The real point about green hydrogen is the potential for a practical way to store excess power. In other words if we have more than enough renewable generators to allow for less windy and less sunny days we would have an awful lot of days when such as idle unless the power can be stored usefully. That then deals with the economic looses of power generation for conversion to H2.
The bigger issues with H2 power are the inefficiencies if used as internal combustion and the costs and longevity if used through fuel cells.
I'd love a fuel cell powered H2 car if there were enough refuelling places.
Of course, I'd really like one powered by Helium3

Very true about the costs for infrastructure and utilities. But if the chargers are placed in the right place next to exiting services with abundant capacity, costs should be minimal.

Nothing wrong with electricity. It's reliable and we have the infrastructure already.

We just have to produce it cleanly, which is where fusion comes in. Once we crack that, which is getting closer every year, we can build facilities that will give us more power than we could ever need.

I heard that its getting closer. Last i heard it was 30 years away

 

[MrBadger]

I heard that its getting closer. Last i heard it was 30 years away

I heard Musk was looking in to it. Two weeks apparently, end of year, definitely


As for hydrogen, from a reliable research project about 4 years back, iirc ~500 mile range was apparently the cutover point between battery and hydrogen from an economic PoV.

 

[Fred2]

That final number of 0.16kg CO2/mile, i.e about 100g/km would be very average for a petrol burning car - that's a bit depressing. (albeit I take that to be the worst, grey hydrogen number)

 

[davidmc]

That final number of 0.16kg CO2/mile, i.e about 100g/km would be very average for a petrol burning car - that's a bit depressing. (albeit I take that to be the worst, grey hydrogen number)

I think cars are as below:

The CO2 emissions from petrol (2.31) and diesel (2.68) average is around 2.4 kg per litre with an "average" of 7.179miles per litre

Which would work out at 0.33 CO2kg per mile

This mind you is from the tail pipe (Consumption) and does not include any of the CO2 used in the production or transportation of these fuels. Also this can not change unlike Electric or Hydrogen as you could plug into a solar/wind charge unit and have zero CO2 emission for that day.

Calculation of CO2 emissions

 

[ACarneiro]

We just have to produce it cleanly, which is where fusion comes in.

I’m not sure if we’re barking up the wrong tree.
Fusion is tough. Very, very tough. Especially if you lack the gravity of, say, a star to help it along.
With the amount of resource and research devoted to Fusion over the last 40 years we could have evolved fission technology to have small, modular reactors cheaply and much more safely with far less end-waste to worry about.
Fusion would be ideal but we should cut our losses. There is enough fissile material to keep us powered for centuries, more than long enough for renewable energy to improve even more and energy storage to become commercially feasible.

 

[M3noob]

I have one word

Hindenburg

 

[mnobleuk]

So playing devil's advocate by these figures a Mirai is "greener" than an ICE car (411g/mile (i googled it)). Given the argument for BEVs is that they aren't completely carbon free but are better than ICE then can't the same argument be used for hydrogen ?

Especially given that there is a large CO2 investment in building batteries.

Additionally if/when we get to 0 CO2 electricity generation then it becomes a moot point.

 

[Nick77]

They've achieved proper ignition and a good yield in recent fusion experiments.

Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as 'ignition' triggered in a lab

Ignition is a key process that amplifies the energy output from nuclear fusion and could provide clean energy and answer some huge physics questions.

phys.org

 

[ACarneiro]

They've achieved proper ignition and a good yield in recent fusion experiments.

Major nuclear fusion milestone reached as 'ignition' triggered in a lab

Ignition is a key process that amplifies the energy output from nuclear fusion and could provide clean energy and answer some huge physics questions.

phys.org

Really interesting, thank you for that link.
They still haven't managed to break even (energetically), though. We still seem to be in the "we're nearly starting" stage of fusion, when we've already got enough technology to make a fission a viable proposition. All we need now is to make it better, and there are already interesting ways of doing that, if only we would spend the time and money.
The anti-nuclear lobby of the last few decades have done us all a great disservice, although with the best intentions in the world (as is often the case).

 

[pgkevet]

Very true about the costs for infrastructure and utilities. But if the chargers are placed in the right place next to exiting services with abundant capacity, costs should be minimal.

And if chargers are to be as abundant and convenient as fuel stations are now then a whole heap of new cables will have to be laid as they would have to be if everyone had a home charger down every street with the need for upgraded substations.
It just isn't that simple.
And if electricity was so abundant as to not matter cost wise (we were promised that with nuclear!) then fuel stations could be electrolysing on site where power exists or at point of generation for tanking/piping etc and do away with the nonsense of carting 500Kg of batteries and their manufacture and recycling.

It just isn't black or white.

And if government wasn't so short -sighted about having to have economic growth irrespective of environmental damage and people weren't too grand or lazy to pick their own fruit and insistent on 'having it large' then Beeching wouldn't have destroyed the railway and we wouldn't be allowing the rank masses to own their own cars or fly abroad - thus leaving the roads clear for deserving people like me. And we could shift freight back onto rail.

I used to be able to drive from Croydon to Bedford in a rattling Austen A40 in 75mins - try doing that now.

 

[Jason71]

I’m not sure if we’re barking up the wrong tree.
Fusion is tough. Very, very tough. Especially if you lack the gravity of, say, a star to help it along.
With the amount of resource and research devoted to Fusion over the last 40 years we could have evolved fission technology to have small, modular reactors cheaply and much more safely with far less end-waste to worry about.
Fusion would be ideal but we should cut our losses. There is enough fissile material to keep us powered for centuries, more than long enough for renewable energy to improve even more and energy storage to become commercially feasible.

pretty much my whole life they have been saying commercial fusion is 20 years away. Its not often that a projected figure like that remains constant for so long so I think it must be credible

 

[Mrklaw]

Interesting. 1.82m/kWh isn’t as bad as as I thought for green hydrogen. Assuming we at least start with perhaps using excess power to put into generation as an alternative to storage, that may be able to provide reasonable volumes perhaps to support heavy goods/trains etc

 

[Zakalwe]

If hydrogen is the future then why are the fossil fuel industries asking the government for billions in tax-payer money? The only benefit to using hydrogen is to prop the FF industry up.

Hydrogen homes is a terrible idea

A plan to pipe hydrogen, instead of natural gas, into millions of UK homes is being pushed hard by the fossil fuel industry.

theecologist.org

 

[davidmc]

If hydrogen is the future then why are the fossil fuel industries asking the government for billions in tax-payer money? The only benefit to using hydrogen is to prop the FF industry up.

Hydrogen homes is a terrible idea

A plan to pipe hydrogen, instead of natural gas, into millions of UK homes is being pushed hard by the fossil fuel industry.

theecologist.org

Saw that the other day and also some one resigned because of this big cover up.

'Expensive distraction': Chair of UK Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Association resigns citing blue hydrogen concerns

Protium CEO Chris Jackson claims blue hydrogen risks locking UK into reliance on fossil fuels as he quits the trade body

www.businessgreen.com

 

[Skotty]

pretty much my whole life they have been saying commercial fusion is 20 years away. Its not often that a projected figure like that remains constant for so long so I think it must be credible

Fusion has been progressing. It's just progressing slowly. You can review the history of ITER and see this. Slow, but marching forward nonetheless. As long as it continues to progress, R&D should continue. It's high technology, and has a big payoff if it succeeds. It can help build a clean energy future, and it could be important for future space travel. It's like human flight. People worked on that for years without success. Where would we be now if we had just written it off?

As for fuel cells, it really just feels like Toyota is just stalling with the fuel cell efforts. I think what the leaders of Toyota really want is just to keep making gas powered cars. But fine by me if they wish to keep working on the fuel cell technology. It might have it's uses somewhere, even if not in automobiles.