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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I think you're misinterpreting the numbers...
LiNi0.5Mn0.3Co0.2O2
If you think this mean Co is 20% then is O2 0%?
Seems unlikely they would reverse direction.
Yes, Co is 20% of the cathode's weight. They want longevity. This is the price for it.
Read the second article from the beginning to the end.
By the way that image you posted is wrong about the weight of the Cobalt in the Model 3. Also the S and X numbers may refer to some 60kWh battery.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Those numbers don't mean what you think they mean. You need to take into account the atomic weight if you're trying to determine the percent mass.
(6.9)+(58.7)(0.5)+(54.9)(0.3)+(58.9)(0.2)+(16)(2)= 80.5amu
So Cobalt would be (58.9)(0.2)/80.5 = ~14.6% of the cathode IIRC there is no cobalt in the anode so probably <10% for the pack.
LiNi0.5Mn0.3Co0.2O2
This is where Elon is trying to trick people. NEVER calculate Cobalt content to the weight of the battery. That is marketing BS from Elon. If you ask a professional about Cobalt content, the answer will be the Cobalt percentage COMPARED TO THE CATHODE ONLY.
I have to double check if the ratio is weight or number of molecules.
If this is true, Elon's BS is even bigger. Because he compared weights.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Jeff Dahn; Cobalt Free battery possible and stable;
I'm far more optimistic for developments that don't require violating the laws of physics...
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Dahn also came out with a paper showing that cobalt is not needed.
*Edit, nwdiver beat me to it.
Brando
Active Member
I forget, how many moles fit on 18650 or 21700 cathode?
Better yet, how many moles of Li in one cell? or used by Tesla annually? The shorts will certainly want to know.
Better yet, how many moles of Li in one cell? or used by Tesla annually? The shorts will certainly want to know.
New dimensions in electrolysis.
E-TAC (Electrochemical, Thermally Activated Chemical) 98.7% efficiency.
Fuel of the Future: Technion Researchers Have Developed an Inexpensive, Environmentally Friendly & Safe Hydrogen Technology – FuelCellsWorks
https://www.h2pro.co/our-technology
E-TAC (Electrochemical, Thermally Activated Chemical) 98.7% efficiency.
Fuel of the Future: Technion Researchers Have Developed an Inexpensive, Environmentally Friendly & Safe Hydrogen Technology – FuelCellsWorks
https://www.h2pro.co/our-technology
Brando
Active Member
Now add in compressing H2 into a tank
then transport to filling station
then transfer to station tank
then transfer to vehicle tank.
OR you might build the H2 factory at the filling station.
Sound efficient to me.
Seems no energy is required for making H2 (1.7% I guess) and none for compression, nor transport
Solar PV - just think how much all that sunlight costs.
Don't people know a % is meaningless UNLESS you know % of what?
I think Elon was right - Fool Cells.
PS - So what is the current price of oil or natural gas or H2 for that matter??
Seems it is still more expensive that sunlight or wind.
PPS- Soon expect someone to suggest new and improved Nuke plant only 8 years to construct will magically give us cheap electricity.
Note: the cost to transport electricity now cost more than the creation of electricity by wind or solar.
Why doesn't everyone already know this ???
then transport to filling station
then transfer to station tank
then transfer to vehicle tank.
OR you might build the H2 factory at the filling station.
Sound efficient to me.
Seems no energy is required for making H2 (1.7% I guess) and none for compression, nor transport
Solar PV - just think how much all that sunlight costs.
Don't people know a % is meaningless UNLESS you know % of what?
I think Elon was right - Fool Cells.
PS - So what is the current price of oil or natural gas or H2 for that matter??
Seems it is still more expensive that sunlight or wind.
PPS- Soon expect someone to suggest new and improved Nuke plant only 8 years to construct will magically give us cheap electricity.
Note: the cost to transport electricity now cost more than the creation of electricity by wind or solar.
Why doesn't everyone already know this ???
Now add in compressing H2 into a tank
then transport to filling station
then transfer to station tank
then transfer to vehicle tank.
OR you might build the H2 factory at the filling station.
Sound efficient to me.
Seems no energy is required for making H2 (1.7% I guess) and none for compression, nor transport
Solar PV - just think how much all that sunlight costs.
Don't people know a % is meaningless UNLESS you know % of what?
I think Elon was right - Fool Cells.
PS - So what is the current price of oil or natural gas or H2 for that matter??
Seems it is still more expensive that sunlight or wind.
PPS- Soon expect someone to suggest new and improved Nuke plant only 8 years to construct will magically give us cheap electricity.
Note: the cost to transport electricity now cost more than the creation of electricity by wind or solar.
Why doesn't everyone already know this ???
See? Finally you are getting this. Yes, H2 station at the filling station. 6% energy loss at compression up to 700bar.
Brando
Active Member
98.6 - 6.0 = 92.6% so less efficient than Electric motor. see how helpful % are??
Anyway costs more than solar or wind or home electricity even gasoline.
Yeah, I get it. You?
side note: No one has built such a filling station.
PS- after Hydrogen explosion in California - have they figured out the problem? Is there a fix? Have they allowed H2 to be sold again? What have the H2 owners been doing? Did they get loaner cars??
I guess Li batteries burn and H2 just explodes.
Is that the only energy loss you can account for? You’re good at accounting for electrical losses. How thorough can you be with H2, or is the 6% inclusive to you?
Electrical losses regarding the transportation of electricity apply to EVs as well. Fuel cell is the one that needs improvement. And I don't know how much energy the water cleaning process needs.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
This is a pretty good comparison.
Even worse than this is the cost of electrolysis which near as I can tell is >$1/w. Think about that... if EV chargers cost $1/w the onboard charger in a Tesla would cost ~$17,000.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I'm all for a well to wheels style comparison, but I think we've established that even with the best of electrolysis efficiency, FCEVs don't approach EVs. So it's probably best to give up that avenue and focus on your worries about battery manufacturing capacity.
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