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Hydrogen vs. Battery

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The problem with photovoltaics is they are very expensive to install and they will basically never offset the grid electricity costs in states like Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, etc. My electricity cost is about $0.14/kWh max. And solar panels can easily get to a $50k+ project. It will take me over 20 years to get even with the grid. I'd better invest in some efficiency updates first. Of course, in Bay Area or HI, at over $0.30/kWh, solar panels start making a lot more sense.

My solar installation, 32 panels and two Powerwalls with associated electronics and installation cost, started making money for me on Day One. I sold some good solid, conservative, dividend-paying mutual funds to pay for everything. The income I lost by no longer having those funds is less than the reduction in my electric bill. I still pay $26.25/month to be connected to the grid, for load balancing. And even with that, my disposable income went up.

No twenty-year or thirty-year payoff period. Real money profit starting on Day One.

I just found out that there was a 5-hour power outage on my block the other day. Neighbors two houses down and two houses up from me experienced it. I didn't even notice! The bonus perk of having solar and Powerwall is that my home keeps running. And since I switched to fiber optic from cable, my internet no longer goes down when there's a power outage.

More and more people in places where the economics of solar are marginal will install it just to be insulated (pun intended!) from power outages. And that, too, will help the grid survive growing demand.

Not every place is suitable for solar. But just as there are not enough EVs being built for everybody to buy one tomorrow, so too not enough PVs are being built for everybody to put up PVs tomorrow. Both changes are gradual: The number of EVs grows as they are built and people with charging opportunity buy them, and the number of PV installations grows as people living in suitable places buy them. And meanwhile the infrastructure and the costs come down, more EVs are built and sold, more charging infrastructure is built, and PVs become cheaper and more efficient, making them available and feasible for more people.
 
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Hey everyone. I wrote a blog on the topic of Hydrogen vs. Battery EVs. This was brought up once again is the discussion around Top Gear's review of the Tesla and Honda Clarity and it seks to address the question of "why does Hydrogen continue to appeal when it doesn't actually make sense from an efficiency standpoint"

Since the crowd on this board is knowledgeable and opinioneated on the subject, I'd welcome your feedback

Darryl Siry's Blog: The stubborn appeal of hydrogen
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I've installed 25 kW solar over the past 8 years. All arrays have paid for themselves (at 0.13 per kWh) so I now have free electricity for the next 20+ years. Grid rates have now gone up to 0.20 per kWh so even more savings.
Where I live, we have 0 (zero) incentives from the state (and no incentives for EVs, and now I pay $110 extra tax for having an EV, per EV), and I am going to switch to the time-of-day rate with $0.037/kWh from 7 pm to 2 pm. I don't see how a $50k investment can pay for itself over any reasonable time. Yes, I would most likely get solar in CA or HI.
 
The problem with photovoltaics is they are very expensive to install and they will basically never offset the grid electricity costs in states like Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, etc. My electricity cost is about $0.14/kWh max. And solar panels can easily get to a $50k+ project. It will take me over 20 years to get even with the grid. I'd better invest in some efficiency updates first. Of course, in Bay Area or HI, at over $0.30/kWh, solar panels start making a lot more sense.
I put in my first solar panels in 2008 and added to my array in 2012, once I measured how much electricity an EV would use. My array is now 2170 watts and it has covered my electricity use for house and car since 2012. This was back when PV was very expensive, even with incentives, so it was not cost effective, but I did it anyway. I budgeted it as part of the cost of my first electric car. Nowadays, PV is a small fraction of the cost I paid.

People think nothing of dropping $40k to $60k on a fancy new car, when an ordinary car would get them from place to place, but can't be bothered to pay for solar panels that will last for decades? I don't get it. My view is that "people buy less useful toys than solar panels, do they not?"
 
Where I live, we have 0 (zero) incentives from the state (and no incentives for EVs, and now I pay $110 extra tax for having an EV, per EV), and I am going to switch to the time-of-day rate with $0.037/kWh from 7 pm to 2 pm. I don't see how a $50k investment can pay for itself over any reasonable time. Yes, I would most likely get solar in CA or HI.
What's the rate from 2 to 7?
Do you use electricity during this time? A/C? Heating? Cooking? Refrigerator?
 
I put in my first solar panels in 2008 and added to my array in 2012, once I measured how much electricity an EV would use. My array is now 2170 watts and it has covered my electricity use for house and car since 2012. This was back when PV was very expensive, even with incentives, so it was not cost effective, but I did it anyway. I budgeted it as part of the cost of my first electric car. Nowadays, PV is a small fraction of the cost I paid.

People think nothing of dropping $40k to $60k on a fancy new car, when an ordinary car would get them from place to place, but can't be bothered to pay for solar panels that will last for decades? I don't get it. My view is that "people buy less useful toys than solar panels, do they not?"
Solar panels are toys unaffordable for most people. If you want to be protected from outages, get a generator or a battery. 2.17 kW is absolutely not enough not enough for me. One car is almost 8 kW and 2 ACs will be some about that each. With cooking, and computers, my power can run well over 20 kW for many hours. Please please, if you get your PV and happy about it, don't try to rationalize your expense. You bought happiness, it's priceless. The economy of PV favors a rather limited population and areas.
 
... I don't see how a $50k investment can pay for itself over any reasonable time. ...

Some people buy stuff based on cost and efficiency. Most people buy stuff for totally different reasons. If people only looked at costs vs benefits, nobody would ever buy a fancy car or jewelry or name-brand fashion clothes and accessories. My solar is making me money, but I'd have bought solar even if it were double the cost of grid electricity. And there are people who wouldn't buy solar even if it cost $250 for an installation big enough to run their whole house.

It makes perfect sense to not buy solar if there's no payback in your location. But you are in the minority. Heck, There's no way a new Tesla can compete with a used Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla in lifetime total cost of ownership. And yet here we are, a bunch of people who own Teslas. Clearly, money was not our bottom line in deciding to buy the best car on the road.
 
Some people buy stuff based on cost and efficiency. Most people buy stuff for totally different reasons. If people only looked at costs vs benefits, nobody would ever buy a fancy car or jewelry or name-brand fashion clothes and accessories. My solar is making me money, but I'd have bought solar even if it were double the cost of grid electricity. And there are people who wouldn't buy solar even if it cost $250 for an installation big enough to run their whole house.

It makes perfect sense to not buy solar if there's no payback in your location. But you are in the minority. Heck, There's no way a new Tesla can compete with a used Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla in lifetime total cost of ownership. And yet here we are, a bunch of people who own Teslas. Clearly, money was not our bottom line in deciding to buy the best car on the road.
Teslas are different from solar. If you are comparing cars on features, then Tesla often wins hands down over anything else on the market at similar price point. When I was buying my first Tesla, I was not cross-shopping it against a Civic. I was comparing it to Audi, MB, Volvo kind of cars, which were not cheaper than Tesla. I agree, that solar are often more of an emotional support purchase rather than a rational one.
 
Solar panels are toys unaffordable for most people. If you want to be protected from outages, get a generator or a battery. 2.17 kW is absolutely not enough not enough for me. One car is almost 8 kW and 2 ACs will be some about that each. With cooking, and computers, my power can run well over 20 kW for many hours. Please please, if you get your PV and happy about it, don't try to rationalize your expense. You bought happiness, it's priceless. The economy of PV favors a rather limited population and areas.

I paid about $8k for 8 kW PV
If it was important to me, I could limit peak power from the utility to way under 5 kW year round 7/24/365
 
Solar panels are toys unaffordable for most people.
Perhaps some truth to the affordability when a cash purchase, but you are assuming the power rates in other areas of the country are similar to yours. Some areas are extremely expensive. My peak TOU rate is 55c/kWh. My original 9.5kW system reached parity at just under 5 years. That's a very reasonable ROI.

The fed rate may have changed the math on this, but I also have friends who could not afford solar. When they did the calculations, a home equity loan to buy rooftop solar meant that their monthly outlay was lower - so like @daniel, they were seeing savings immediately after installation, and for the term of the loan and thereafter. Not a "toy" by a long shot.
 
Again, it depends on your circumstances: Your latitude, local average cloud cover, do you even own your home, your local utility rates, etc. If you live in the PNW, where your electricity comes from hydro the environmental imperative isn't as great. That's the thing when comparing sustainable energy with fossil fuels: The fossil-fuel-powered grid covers the whole country and the entire industrialized world and is one-size-fits-all. If you drive a stinker, you just fill at any gas station, and they're everywhere. Sustainable energy requires many different strategies depending on your circumstances. Lots of people cannot have solar. Lots of people cannot afford solar. As with any emerging technology, extreme situations justify it first, and as it grows and efficiency improves and costs come down more and more people can afford it.

When I lived in Spokane I could not install solar because it was prohibited by the HOA. (Because the HOA was responsible for roof repair and solar would have complicated that.) But eventually that will change. When I moved here I looked at buying a condo, so that maintenance would be somebody else's responsibility, but in a condo I would not have owned the roof. You can't put solar on a roof if you don't own a roof. But a few condos have installed solar as a decision of the HOA. And more will do so eventually.

Solar is one solution among many which will never be appropriate for everybody, but which is a no-brainer for many already. The same with electric cars: They'll never be appropriate for everybody, but they're the best answer for many already. Solar is a big part of the solution to sustainable energy. But it's not one-size-fits-all. Some places need different solutions.