JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Let's not forget the Killacycle running A123 batteries and Current Eliminator running Altairnano batteries can both accelerate a little bit :biggrin:
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
Has Calif.'s hydrogen highway gone bust? - NYTimes.com
I think for BEVs the answer is clearly the vehicle.
What comes first, the vehicle or the infrastructure?
I think for BEVs the answer is clearly the vehicle.
Meanwhile, the same Gov. who championed Hydrogen has purchased an all electric vehicle.
This is what I kept thinking when reading this "chicken or egg" article.
It's dying.
At this point the automakers don't care what kind of cars they make, they just need to move product. So now more than ever it's time for the gasoline makers to put up or shut up.
If they truly want to saddle the world with a new fuel for the next gen of automobiles they need to drop billions and billions in building hundreds of these stations all over California. It's a huge risk as most will sit empty for a long time but that's the kind of investment that will either hatch a new industry or lay an egg.
graham
Active Member
Oh, I have had that electricity stuff at my house for a while now... Indoor plumbing too! :smile:
Heh, yes. :tongue: I suppose I should have rephrased their statement to clarify what I take for them to mean a public refueling/recharging infrastructure. Clearly we don't need to wait around for new infrastructure to make BEVs (though some argue we do).
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Jay Leno Thinks Chevy Volt Superior to Prius | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt Electric Car Site
Jay Leno mentions in this article that for the Equinox "The only downside is that it’s about a 20 minute wait for a fill-up, so bring a book. But that’s only because the infrastructure is not here yet so it takes a little longer to fill."
I always thought all of the hydrogen fueling stations were 5 minute fill-ups (like gas), I wasn't aware some were that slow. Anyone know why it's that slow, and if most hydrogen fueling stations are that slow? Still quite a bit faster than EV fill-ups but it's about the speed of the lower power rapid chargers.
Edit:
Okay, I found out why. The 10k psi compression takes a bit of time, so it can take up to 25 minutes to fill up a car. With buffer tanks of pre-compressed hydrogen, you can fill up in 5-10 minutes.
Jay Leno mentions in this article that for the Equinox "The only downside is that it’s about a 20 minute wait for a fill-up, so bring a book. But that’s only because the infrastructure is not here yet so it takes a little longer to fill."
I always thought all of the hydrogen fueling stations were 5 minute fill-ups (like gas), I wasn't aware some were that slow. Anyone know why it's that slow, and if most hydrogen fueling stations are that slow? Still quite a bit faster than EV fill-ups but it's about the speed of the lower power rapid chargers.
Edit:
Okay, I found out why. The 10k psi compression takes a bit of time, so it can take up to 25 minutes to fill up a car. With buffer tanks of pre-compressed hydrogen, you can fill up in 5-10 minutes.
Actually, if you look at the video that went along with the Dan Neil review of the FCX Clarity, he emphasizes that it takes a long time to fill... he doesn't say exactly how long, but I seem to remember a clock in the frame, so maybe one can make an estimate.
As to why it's so slow... well I don't know the details of hydrogen fill stations, but I've dealt with cryogens and compressed gasses a lot, so I can make some guesses. It really has to do with how much impedance is in the line and how much back pressure there is in the tank. It can take a long time to compress gasses to thousands of psi.
I don't know if the Equinox is liquid or gaseous hydrogen. If filling liquid, then there should probably have to be a return line to collect gaseous boil off. It takes me about 30 minutes to fill a 100 liter dewar with liquid nitrogen. And that's just venting the boil off to atmosphere. What's the volume of the tank in the Equinox?
EDIT: Oops... just saw your edits. That's what I get for not refreshing.
Obama was on the Tonight Show tonight and his appearance ended up giving a bit of a plug for hydrogen...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/us/politics/20obama.text.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/us/politics/20obama.text.html?pagewanted=5&_r=1
The Tonight Show with Jay Leno - President Obama - Full Interview (3/19) - Video - NBC.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/us/politics/20obama.text.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/us/politics/20obama.text.html?pagewanted=5&_r=1
The Tonight Show with Jay Leno - President Obama - Full Interview (3/19) - Video - NBC.com
I would have transcribed it differently, with a break after that first sentence in that last Obama quote.
I interpreted the that in "That's a whole new level of technology" as referring to hydrogen, but also trying not to get off topic (i.e. that's some other thing...). The following thats were referring to battery technology, or perhaps automotive technology in general.
I'm sure hydrogen proponents will spin it however they want.
I interpreted the that in "That's a whole new level of technology" as referring to hydrogen, but also trying not to get off topic (i.e. that's some other thing...). The following thats were referring to battery technology, or perhaps automotive technology in general.
I'm sure hydrogen proponents will spin it however they want.
Right. Obama started the digression, including hydrogen in a small way, but was getting back on the broader topic. It's not as if he was saying, "Hydrogen's what's going to create the auto industry of the future. Hydrogen's where we're going to win back manufacturing." Which is my problem with the transcription.
Well Obama mentioned Jay's Hydrogen car because either Jay had mentioned it the previous visit (on or off camera), this visit (backstage before the interview), or he was briefed on Jay and his new technology cars. Obama always has good info about the people he meets (at least interviewers) so he can use it in discussion.
As we watched Obama at SCE and on Jay I pointed out to my wife that the President's actions are what is important. So far he has said clean coal and hydrogen cars but more is being done/given to solar-wind and Hybrid-Electric vehicles.
As we watched Obama at SCE and on Jay I pointed out to my wife that the President's actions are what is important. So far he has said clean coal and hydrogen cars but more is being done/given to solar-wind and Hybrid-Electric vehicles.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Obama To Leno: Electric Cars Are The Future
Jalopnik reports on this.
Reading the comments is so frustrating. It seems natural though that gearheads like hydrogen more (seems closer to gasoline) and also because most of them hate "liberals" which they connect to electric cars (and relatedly hybrids).
Also a lot of parroting the same comments made by Top Gear's hydrogen pieces.
Jalopnik reports on this.
Reading the comments is so frustrating. It seems natural though that gearheads like hydrogen more (seems closer to gasoline) and also because most of them hate "liberals" which they connect to electric cars (and relatedly hybrids).
Also a lot of parroting the same comments made by Top Gear's hydrogen pieces.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/8019_fuel_cell_system_cost.pdf
According to this, if state of the art PEM fuel cell systems from 2008 were manufactured in volumes of 500k+ then the price would be $73/kW in 2008 dollars.
Considering 110kW (150hp) is enough to power a wide range of cars, that works out to be $8030 for the PEM system of that power.
The year 2000 estimate was $294/kW which would have worked out to be $32,340 for 110kW in 2000 dollars.
http://www.fuelcells.org/info/library/ADLCostModel.pdf
That's a pretty good improvement.
Don't know how much a storage tank costs but conceivably if they mass produce at a volume of 500k+ then fuel cell systems would approach costs of battery packs or even less. This is just a heads up so you won't be taken by surprise if it ever gets to that point. The estimates might be optimistic but it does show that hydrogen is closer than many would think (especially hearing all the prototypes cost $500k-millions). Of course they still have the infrastructure to work out, which is going to be a challenge, but if they can get much cheaper cars out, then it might solve one side of the "chicken or egg" problem.
I stumbled on this stuff after looking at price claims in the posts by a consistently pro-hydrogen commenter on Green Car Congress called wintermane2000 (he didn't post any links though so I had to look for where he got the figures).
Green Car Congress: DOE Awards RPI $1.6M to Develop New Fuel Cell Manufacturing Technology and Processes
According to this, if state of the art PEM fuel cell systems from 2008 were manufactured in volumes of 500k+ then the price would be $73/kW in 2008 dollars.
Considering 110kW (150hp) is enough to power a wide range of cars, that works out to be $8030 for the PEM system of that power.
The year 2000 estimate was $294/kW which would have worked out to be $32,340 for 110kW in 2000 dollars.
http://www.fuelcells.org/info/library/ADLCostModel.pdf
That's a pretty good improvement.
Don't know how much a storage tank costs but conceivably if they mass produce at a volume of 500k+ then fuel cell systems would approach costs of battery packs or even less. This is just a heads up so you won't be taken by surprise if it ever gets to that point. The estimates might be optimistic but it does show that hydrogen is closer than many would think (especially hearing all the prototypes cost $500k-millions). Of course they still have the infrastructure to work out, which is going to be a challenge, but if they can get much cheaper cars out, then it might solve one side of the "chicken or egg" problem.
I stumbled on this stuff after looking at price claims in the posts by a consistently pro-hydrogen commenter on Green Car Congress called wintermane2000 (he didn't post any links though so I had to look for where he got the figures).
Green Car Congress: DOE Awards RPI $1.6M to Develop New Fuel Cell Manufacturing Technology and Processes
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Those sound like pie in the sky estimates that don't really prove anything. If EV traction packs were built in 500K quantities prices would be much lower as well. Fact is that lithium production is increasing and prices are dropping, unlike fuel cells. Not to mention the poor energy usage of hydrogen and infrastructure already mentioned.
An Inconvenient Truth was shown on network TV for the first time here last night. It was interesting, but it didn't tell me anything new (it might have done 3 or 4 years ago). I warmed to Al Gore a lot more because of it.
However, guess which Japanese car manufacturer took the entire first ad break - featuring among other things a car "that emits only water"? They even had the continuity announcer introduce it as a "special advertisement for doers everywhere". Grr.
The next time this film is shown, I want to see a full length ad for Model S in that spot :smile:
However, guess which Japanese car manufacturer took the entire first ad break - featuring among other things a car "that emits only water"? They even had the continuity announcer introduce it as a "special advertisement for doers everywhere". Grr.
The next time this film is shown, I want to see a full length ad for Model S in that spot :smile:
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