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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
JeffK
Well-Known Member
Well, here's a completely unscientific estimate. Diesel Semis get 6-8 mpg. A Diesel Mercedes S-class gets about 30 mpg (highway). So say the semi takes about 5 times as much energy as an S class and then extrapolate from the Model S.
Your talking about a battery 5 times the size of the Model S and it takes 5 times as much energy, so say 300 miles (give or take 200 miles).
Well, a diesel Mercedes E or BMW 5 series will get 35-40 mpg on the highway. A modern semi with the same technologies under the hood will get 6-8 mpg. So it seems like the semi need 5-6 times the power/energy to cover the same ground in similar conditions.
A Tesla Model S will get 335 miles of range from 100 kWh. This tends to imply a Tesla like semi would get about 335 miles from 5-600 kWh.
My oh my...
Simple Fuel is now selling a $250,000 home hydrogen charging station. Yay!
IVYS Simple Fuel Station Offers Homemade Hydrogen For $250,000
For those good with numbers, here are a few to ponder...
A Honda Clarity needs 5.46kg of Hydrogen for a full tank. This station can produce either 5 or 10 kg per day. So you can refuel one or two cars per day. Then, the dispense rate is 10 minutes per kilogram, so filling the Clarity from empty to full would take 55 minutes, almost an hour. I guess they were able to cut down the cost of the station by trading off "fast fueling" for the 55 minute solution.
You could Supercharge your Tesla to full in that same amount of time, skipping the $250,000 Simple Fuel device altogether. And the energy consumed to create the H2 from water is probably enough to fill up 3 Teslas.
RT
P.S. It simply boggles the mind
Simple Fuel is now selling a $250,000 home hydrogen charging station. Yay!
IVYS Simple Fuel Station Offers Homemade Hydrogen For $250,000
For those good with numbers, here are a few to ponder...
A Honda Clarity needs 5.46kg of Hydrogen for a full tank. This station can produce either 5 or 10 kg per day. So you can refuel one or two cars per day. Then, the dispense rate is 10 minutes per kilogram, so filling the Clarity from empty to full would take 55 minutes, almost an hour. I guess they were able to cut down the cost of the station by trading off "fast fueling" for the 55 minute solution.
You could Supercharge your Tesla to full in that same amount of time, skipping the $250,000 Simple Fuel device altogether. And the energy consumed to create the H2 from water is probably enough to fill up 3 Teslas.
RT
P.S. It simply boggles the mind
To be fair, nobody is going to be supercharging their Tesla at home. Nobody has that kind of wiring, and nobody needs to. A more measured response is that home filling of a hydrogen car is impractical and massively expensive, so that in the real world you will be going to an H2 filling station, where presumably filling happens much faster. (I used to heat my old farmhouse with LP gas, and it took a few minutes for the bulk truck to fill my 500-gallon tank. H2 is not propane, but a filling station can probably fill a hydrogen tank fairly quickly.) The real point is that at a quarter of a million dollars for the home station, nobody is going to be using those.
So the real comparison:
Tesla: Charge at home, use superchargers on the freeway, use extremely slow L2 charging off the major highways. Carbon footprint: moderate if you use grid power, zero if you use solar or wind power. 0 to 60 around 5 seconds for the slowest Tesla, under 3 seconds for the really quick ones. Electric motors: very reliable and long-lasting.
Clarity: No practical charging at home. Very few filling stations. Carbon footprint: H2 today is made from natural gas and releases a lot of carbon to make the H2. Theoretically H2 can be made from water and electricity, but nobody is doing that now. 0 to 60 9.2 seconds. Fuel cells: shorter lifespan than a modern ICE.
So the real comparison:
Tesla: Charge at home, use superchargers on the freeway, use extremely slow L2 charging off the major highways. Carbon footprint: moderate if you use grid power, zero if you use solar or wind power. 0 to 60 around 5 seconds for the slowest Tesla, under 3 seconds for the really quick ones. Electric motors: very reliable and long-lasting.
Clarity: No practical charging at home. Very few filling stations. Carbon footprint: H2 today is made from natural gas and releases a lot of carbon to make the H2. Theoretically H2 can be made from water and electricity, but nobody is doing that now. 0 to 60 9.2 seconds. Fuel cells: shorter lifespan than a modern ICE.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Actually I believe someone in this forum has a CHAdeMO at their home, so home quick charging does exist, although rare. If I remember correctly costs about $50k, definitely not as much as $250k.
From the article I read, the proposed hydrogen station is more suitable for fleet usage (like hydrogen forklifts) given the cost and low generation capacity (only 10kg per day, enough to fill 2-3 cars).
Okay. I stand corrected on that point. But why would anyone want or need a 62.5 kW charger at home? My main point stands, that fast charging at home is not needed, either for a BEV or for an H2 fuel-cell car.
What is relevant is that for a few hundred dollars you can get an electrician to install a 240 v. 50 a. circuit in your garage for charging a BEV quickly enough for at-home charging, compared to a quarter of a million dollars for the H2 station, meaning that it's practical to charge your Tesla at home, but not practical to charge your Clarity at home unless you have a quarter of a million dollars you don't need.
The slow speed of the H2 filler is not relevant for home use because as long as you can get a fill overnight, that's all you need.
Most houses in the USA do NOT have 3 phase power, and the CHAdeMO solutions that run off of single/split-phase home power tend to be much lower power... Like 12kW...
So, debatable if you could consider that "quick charging".
12KW Portable Fast DC Charger for Electric car-CHAdeMO charger,EV charger,leaf charger,Tesla charger,CCS chager-Electway Electric
DC Charging Page
Sure, if you installed it at home, the fueling speed would not matter because you either wouldn't fill the whole tank at once or you would have all night for it to fill. I think it's also telling that it's installed outdoors. Not only is there probably no room inside the garage for that huge thing, but leaks will escape outside and not be trapped by the garage ceiling leading to an explosion risk.The funny thing is that the linked page shows this guy installed at a home...
I think you would have to get a 90% discount on the current price for it to even start to make sense. IIRC, the Phill CNG home compressor was about $5k-$6k, but they needed to be rebuilt every few years for $4k. That pretty much killed it. I have to wonder how many kWh/kg is required for this H2 station and how much maintenance it will require.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
You do know that there is no "this guy".The funny thing is that the linked page shows this guy installed at a home...
The picture is photoshopped.
this guy == simple fuel dispenser
And yes, I realize the picture is indeed photoshopped. This is not my first BBQ
And yes, I realize that TMC is not a BBQ joint, though I am slow cooking some ribs in the over for our annual HOA meeting in 30 minutes.
RT
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Sounds delicious.this guy == simple fuel dispenser
And yes, I realize the picture is indeed photoshopped. This is not my first BBQ
And yes, I realize that TMC is not a BBQ joint, though I am slow cooking some ribs in the over for our annual HOA meeting in 30 minutes.
RT
Since the H2 station probably costs more than the house in the picture, I wonder what they are thinking.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Actually you can get a 50kW Chademo that runs off a DC battery bank EVTV Motor Verks Store: CHAdeMO 50kw DC-DC Charge Station, Battery Chargers, dcdcchargestation
Pulled into the parking garage after lunch and passed a Clarity. Took a picture, and noticed a very loud sound from the front end. Upon leaving work several hours later, car was making the same sound. Took a video this time. Also looked like the running lights were on.
Outside temperature in the sun was easily 100+. Do FCEV's all make this kind of noise when sitting in a hot climate?
RT
Outside temperature in the sun was easily 100+. Do FCEV's all make this kind of noise when sitting in a hot climate?
RT
Have seen some Mirais and one Clarity up close but didn't notice that loud noise. Will check out when I encounter those in the near future. Heard that FC stack requires extensive cooling.
http://jisedai-jidosha.com/images/2contents/07/hyougo08.9.pdf
(Japanese PDF)
On page 10bit refers to FC coolant and it seems they try to keep it under 40C, because the coolant is ionized at higher temperature than 40C and it will cause electricity leak from the stack. Seems like the coolant is in direct contact with the electrical part.
Adm
Active Member
With $250k you could buy a Powerpack at your home which you could slow charge and than fast charge your car and have some change left.
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