Hydrogen vs. Battery

[mblakele]

Patience, my dear friend!

There’s a climate crisis happening. We need to implement solutions yesterday, if not sooner.

IMO, hydrogen cars are more convenient for people.

Your IMO would be more impressive if you drove an HFCEV yourself.

But you know what’s convenient? Waking up every morning to a full charge. That's convenient. I’ve been doing it for more than three years.

Cost of fuel and cars are big concerns. Hope is, those will be solved.

Hope is not a strategy.

 

[acoste]

I don't read the same comments regarding Li ion batteries. And one reason for that is the chemistry. It is still not good enough. Too heavy, charges slowly. Miners need to gamble on chemistry.

Irrelevant for grid storage. Try again.

They are linked. The potential in battery business is larger than the current oil market. Everyone and their mother are researching battery chemistry now. Car makers, miners and all chemical labs.

Let's say you are a miner and you invest in a Nickel and Cobalt mine now. Takes couple of years to ramp up the production. Meanwhile someone discovers a way to make the Lithium Sulfur battery long lasting which has the potential of having at least 2x the energy density of NCA or NMC and also cheaper than these. Your investments are doomed since no one needs your stuff from there on.

This is why I said miners are gambling against the success of all that research efforts.

 

[acoste]

That article doesn’t answer the question. It just rehashes the same tired arguments we’ve debunked so many times in this thread.

I’ll expand a bit on the idea that we’re dealing with a sunk cost problem. Ten or twenty years ago, it made sense for regulators to incentivize any technology that might plausibly lead to sustainable transportation. BEV and HFCEV were two candidates. Companies responded to those incentives. Several decided to place bets on HFCEV, for various reasons. It made some sense at the time. Fast-forward to the present, and it’s becoming clear that BEV has won. But big organizations don’t turn on a dime, and it may be years yet before they write off these sunk costs.

Toyota is one of the most flexible big organization, otherwise they couldn't have reached their current position in the market. Just learn about how efficient and flexible their production lines are. Or just think about how they were able to completely change the look of their cars in the last 5 years. I can not imagine them being stuck in a false belief for 20 years.

BMW expects massive job cuts in the next 3 years to compensate for all the investments in the new technologies. BEV and autonomous. Yet they are opening new fuel cell projects.

But all these H2 investments are again betting against the short term success of battery research. They are gambling as well.

 

[acoste]

By the way I don't care much about fuel cell cars in the US. What I'm interested in is to make all the electricity generation green but they are all weather dependent and H2 can provide seasonal storage solution which is the most difficult part. Meanwhile if the technology is mature, why not deploy millions of FCEVs in overpolluted Asian cities until the BEVs can replace all cars which might take 40-50 years?

 

[Curious George]

Um... so they can get a full fill? It's not like you can just conveniently fill these things in your driveway . Seeing as how most people have to drive so far to find H2 they probably want to minimize those trips. The Mirai fills to 10,000psi.... what was that you were saying about not understanding H2 cars?

???
10k psi = 70 MPa = 700 bar = H70.
5k psi = 35 MPa = 350 bar = H35
So why will fuel cell car drivers fill up with H35 to get only 2.5 kg ( 5k psi)? H70 is what they need, so their 10k psi tank is filled to 10k psi and they have ~5kg in tank for a full fill.
Need a refresher course on this?

There’s a climate crisis happening. We need to implement solutions yesterday, if not sooner.

LOL. Then riding a bicycle is the best option.

Your IMO would be more impressive if you drove an HFCEV yourself.

If you haven't realized yet, I do already.

 

[nwdiver]

I can not imagine them being stuck in a false belief for 20 years.

Neither can I. The point if the Mirai is to buy more time for ICE. You're proof it's working....

If the Mirai was designed to succeed it would have a plug and use H2 for extended range.

 

[nwdiver]

So why will fuel cell car drivers fill up with H35 to get only 2.5 kg ( 5k psi)? H70 is what they need.
Need a refresher course on this?

I misread your post as why would someone need H70...

 

[acoste]

Neither can I. The point if the Mirai is to buy more time for ICE. You're proof it's working....

If the Mirai was designed to succeed it would have a plug and use H2 for extended range.

I don't understand your "buy more time for ICE" comment.

Emission limits are getting more strict (except in the US unfortunately), existing ICE design needs new investment money to keep up with regulations.
Second. Massive investments (Toyota sells 10M cars annually) in BEVs right now would shoot up the BEV prices immediately since there isn't enough battery production capacity.

 

[nwdiver]

I don't understand your "buy more time for ICE" comment.

LOL! Really? What do you drive? BEVs are clearly the future. The purpose of the Mirai is to sow doubt among the ignorant to delay the death of ICE.

 

[voyager]

Japanese car makers stick to developing FCEVs because Japan incentivizes them. California too keeps a keen eye on their potential.

 

[JRP3]

Meanwhile if the technology is mature, why not deploy millions of FCEVs in overpolluted Asian cities until the BEVs can replace all cars which might take 40-50 years?

In what universe do you see FCVs somehow catching up to and surpassing EVs when they are so far behind and losing ground?

 

[mblakele]

By the way I don't care much about fuel cell cars in the US. What I'm interested in is to make all the electricity generation green but they are all weather dependent and H2 can provide seasonal storage solution which is the most difficult part.

Since HELMETH I'm inclined to think that Power to Methane will prove better than power-to-hydrogen. Neither technology is ready to scale today, so time will tell.

 

[acoste]

Since HELMETH I'm inclined to think that Power to Methane will prove better than power-to-hydrogen. Neither technology is ready to scale today, so time will tell.

In those projects they create H2 first. So producing Methane needs additional steps however it is cheaper to handle CH4 than H2 later on. Drawback is that CH4 still needs to be burned and although it has zero GHG effect, incomplete combustion results in poisonous gasses. But even with that the air would be much cleaner than now, so I'm ok with that as well, just prefer H2 for it being real zero emission.

 

[acoste]

LOL! Really? What do you drive? BEVs are clearly the future. The purpose of the Mirai is to sow doubt among the ignorant to delay the death of ICE.

BEVs are the future I agree. But which chemistry will win? I disagree with your conspiracy theory. I can imagine that for GM but not for Toyota.
// why are you ignoring my related comments on this topic and quote only part of it?


By the way Toyota, who many people here talk sh**t about has done more for the environment than any other car maker. In the last 20 years hybrids reduced the emissions the most since batteries were not available in large scale. If one has a budget of 100kWh and has to decide to make 99 gas cars and 1 EV with 100kWh or 100 hybrids with 1kWh each, the latter decision results in a much lower emission.
Analysis finds hybrids make better use of scarce batteries than pure EVs

Toyota beat all other ICE in fuel consumption and on top of this they make the most reliable cars which means these cars live longer reducing lifetime emissions at the car manufacturing part.


One more thing to this. mblakele mentioned Elon's master plan.

1. Create a low volume car, which would necessarily be expensive
2. Use that money to develop a medium volume car at a lower price

Roughly this is where we are now. Start with luxury segment and move lower as batteries get cheaper. The current EV prices are still higher than Toyota's price point. These are not in the "affordable" category yet. And in many countries these prices mean luxury.

 

[mblakele]

In those projects they create H2 first. So producing Methane needs additional steps however it is cheaper to handle CH4 than H2 later on. Drawback is that CH4 still needs to be burned and although it has zero GHG effect, incomplete combustion results in poisonous gasses. But even with that the air would be much cleaner than now, so I'm ok with that as well, just prefer H2 for it being real zero emission.

As I said, time will tell. Both technologies have strengths and weaknesses. H2 is more difficult to work with and requires a lot of new infrastructure and upgrades. CH4 is well understood today and has a lot of existing infrastructure; but it may prove impractical to create a carbon loop. Because existing infrastructure is part of the equation, the answer may be different in different places.

There are active EU projects working on power-to-methane, which I've posted about in the power-to-methane thread.

 

[nwdiver]

By the way Toyota, who many people here talk sh**t about has done more for the environment than any other car maker.

I quote the most relevant part I'm responding to;

Toyota has also been one of the most anti-EV companies. Their FUD ads are pathetic...

 

[acoste]

As I said, time will tell. Both technologies have strengths and weaknesses. H2 is more difficult to work with and requires a lot of new infrastructure and upgrades. CH4 is well understood today and has a lot of existing infrastructure; but it may prove impractical to create a carbon loop. Because existing infrastructure is part of the equation, the answer may be different in different places.

There are active EU projects working on power-to-methane, which I've posted about in the power-to-methane thread.

Yes, I'm aware some of them.
These guys here are testing how much H2 they can blend into natural gas: Underground Sun Storage
I also linked here another project which put a H2 pump station next to the electrolyzer but for storage they are converting the H2 to CH4.

 

[Curious George]

More on Linde's Cryo Pump 90 :
https://whyhydrogen.linde.com/honey-i-shrunk-the-hydrogen-pump/

Realising the future
In fact, the hydrogen refuelled at stations in Germany is nothing in terms of quantity compared to what is fuelled in the US. German filling stations move some 600 kilograms of hydrogen per month, according to Reese. “The stations now envisioned in California are designed for 400 kilograms per day.”

 

[nwdiver]

View attachment 460774

More on Linde's Cryo Pump 90 :
https://whyhydrogen.linde.com/honey-i-shrunk-the-hydrogen-pump/

Too bad the amount of energy required to liquify a kg of H2 is >20% of the amount of usable energy in that kg.... You're reducing the REAL mpg from ~48 to ~36 how is this better than gasoline? Lots of much cheaper cars out there that get >40 mpg. Seriously... what's the point to this? If my Tesla only got ~36mpge I would not drive a Tesla....

 

[ohmman]

Too bad the amount of energy required to liquify a kg of H2 is >20% of the amount of usable energy in that kg.... You're reducing the REAL mpg from ~48 to ~36 how is this better than gasoline? Lots of much cheaper cars out there that get >40 mpg. Seriously... what's the point to this? If my Tesla only got ~36mpge I would not drive a Tesla....

While I almost 100% agree, I'll take the advocate's point here and say that there is some benefit to concentrating emissions at the power plant. Roadside emissions and air pollution carry a healthcare cost. Childhood asthma rates are much higher near major roadways, which incidentally also disproportionately affects the lower income population. So while it does absolutely nothing from a climate perspective, it does help concentrate the emissions in one place.