Hydrogen vs. Battery

[nwdiver]

While I almost 100% agree, I'll take the advocate's point here and say that there is some benefit to concentrating emissions at the power plant.

A little but the emissions from modern gas powered cars is pretty low. Lower still for CNG. From a cost benefit perspective a scrapage program would be FAR more effective. CA is spending $7k per H2 car just on infrastructure subsidies. A $2k rebate on a new more efficient car would do A LOT more per $$$ for reducing air pollution.

And this is just comparing H2 to ICE. It's even BETTER H2 to BEV....

 

[ohmman]

A little but the emissions from modern gas powered cars is pretty low. Lower still for CNG.

It's not insignificant. Particulates are also carcinogenic. The vastly better option is to get a BEV, of course. But there's some marginal air quality benefit from driving the inferior product.

 

[mblakele]

While I almost 100% agree, I'll take the advocate's point here and say that there is some benefit to concentrating emissions at the power plant. Roadside emissions and air pollution carry a healthcare cost. Childhood asthma rates are much higher near major roadways, which incidentally also disproportionately affects the lower income population. So while it does absolutely nothing from a climate perspective, it does help concentrate the emissions in one place.

Happily we don't have to make that choice. Instead we can choose a BEV: 100-ish mpge, and any emissions from non-renewable energy are concentrated at the power plant.

In passing, I passed a Mirai today. First one I've seen in San Mateo County in a while... maybe two weeks? Can't move for Teslas, of course.

 

[S'toon]

View attachment 460774

More on Linde's Cryo Pump 90 :
https://whyhydrogen.linde.com/honey-i-shrunk-the-hydrogen-pump/

So that makes, what, 33 stations in the US?

There's over 121,000 gas stations. Got quite a ways to go there for your market penetration fantasy.

 

[ohmman]

So that makes, what, 33 stations in the US?

There's over 121,000 gas stations. Got quite a ways to go there for your market penetration fantasy.

I'd love to know how many charging stations there are in the US, if you include home charging.

 

[S'toon]

I'd love to know how many charging stations there are in the US, if you include home charging.

DC Fast Charging Statistics – EVAdoption

Level 2 Stations & Locations – EVAdoption

Don't know how you'd find out home charging.

 

[ohmman]

DC Fast Charging Statistics – EVAdoption

Level 2 Stations & Locations – EVAdoption

Don't know how you'd find out home charging.

Right, that’s the factor I couldn’t quantify. But surely it’s quite a few.

 

[JRP3]

Don't know how you'd find out home charging

Every home that has electricity has home charging capability, so basically every home.

 

[ohmman]

Every home that has electricity has home charging capability, so basically every home.

Good point, though household outlets are marginally useful for charging. More useful than a downed or distant H2 station, though, so I’ll have to agree.

 

[Curious George]

Too bad the amount of energy required to liquify a kg of H2 is >20% of the amount of usable energy in that kg.... You're reducing the REAL mpg from ~48 to ~36 how is this better than gasoline? Lots of much cheaper cars out there that get >40 mpg. Seriously... what's the point to this? If my Tesla only got ~36mpge I would not drive a Tesla....

Do you read the links you post? The link is same as what I posted earlier.

The minimum theoretical energy to liquefy hydrogen from ambient (300 K, 1.01 bar) conditions is 3.3 kWh/kg LH2 or 3.9 kWh/kg LH2 with conversion to para-LH2 (which is standard practice) [1]. Actual liquefaction energy requirements are substantially higher, typically 10-13 kWh/kg LH2, depending on the size of the liquefaction operation [5,6]. Novel liquefaction methods such as an active magnetic regenerative liquefier may require as little as 7 kWh/kg LH2 [6,7]. For comparison, the lower heating value (LHV) of hydrogen is 33.3 kWh/kg H2. Compression energy requirements from on-site production range from approximately 5 - 20% of LHV. Liquefaction (including conversion to paraLH2) with today’s processes requires 30 - 40% of LHV, while theoretical energy requirements for 700 bar and LH2 storage span a range of only 4-10% of LHV respectively.

Hydrogen fueling does not need millions of charging stations. A small footprint h2 station can fuel more cars than electric charging stalls few times bigger in size.That's the beauty of it. If all 60 stations in California will deliver 400 kg/day. that's enough fuel for 45k cars.

 

[Saghost]

Good point, though household outlets are marginally useful for charging. More useful than a downed or distant H2 station, though, so I’ll have to agree.

How many houses don’t have wiring for an electric stove or dryer?

I’m sure there are some, but they have to be a small minority - and of course either of those plugs will easily support an EV on a typical usage profile.

 

[JRP3]

Yes only older homes which have never been upgraded do not have 240V capability.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Yes only older homes which have never been upgraded do not have 240V capability.

I'd just like to point out that my father is 5+ years into C-Max Energi ownership and has been charging daily from a standard 120v outlet. My opinion is that any house with a garage that has electrical service should be included in any number used to calculate potential home charging access.

I'm not sure there is good information on how many households with off-street parking have electrified carports/garages...but the number of houses in the US with off-street parking access is around 86M.

Of course, I realize that 240v access is considerably more convenient than 120v...but for DD requirements in the US any standard outlet can be used to fulfill the driving requirements of the vast majority of drivers. It's the reason Volt owners drive something like 90% of the time on electricity. It's also the reason it makes absolutely no sense that plugs aren't added to the Rube Goldberg contraptions known as FCEVs.

Relatedly, we installed three 240v outlets in our 3-bay garage...so that's at least 3 chargers for a single US household.

 

[nwdiver]

Do you read the links you post? The link is same as what I posted earlier.

And 10 - 13kWh is what percentage of 33kWh? How is that acceptable??? I was being generous with >20%... it's ~30%. After conversion losses AND liquefaction losses your mpge probably won't even be 36mpge. ~3x more than a typical BEV. How is that an acceptable efficiency?

AND... as if things couldn't get any worse... if it's stored as a liquid you lose ~3-5% per day because you can't keep cryogenic liquids around for very long...

So basically you have a battery with a round trip efficiency of ~50% and a self-discharge rate of 60-80% per month... how is that even remotely acceptable?

 

[Curious George]

And 10 - 13kWh is what percentage of 33kWh? How is that acceptable??? I was being generous with >20%... it's ~30%. After conversion losses AND liquefaction losses your mpge probably won't even be 36mpge. ~3x more than a typical BEV. How is that an acceptable efficiency?

AND... as if things couldn't get any worse... if it's stored as a liquid you lose ~3-5% per day because you can't keep cryogenic liquids around for very long...

So basically you have a battery with a round trip efficiency of ~50% and a self-discharge rate of 60-80% per month... how is that even remotely acceptable?

OK, I misread your previous comment as "energy needed is > 120% of energy stored". 10 KWh is not a huge amount. People spend that much every day just to turn over the water in their backyard pool.
see page 5 in that link. With larger scale, this is less.

But the most important is, this is an intermediate solution to get over the chicken-and-egg situation. Today there are already gas companies blending 6% hydrogen in natural gas. Putting that in cars is a better use of that hydrogen. That time will come, but we are nto there yet.

3-4% boil off per day: Obviously, there is a balancing act here. If we do the worst case analysis, then BEVs also won't look good compared to efficient hybrids.

 

[acoste]

Some updates on battery production.

In H1 2019, xEV Battery Deployment Increased 89% To 46.3 GWh

There is about 300GWh Li-ion production capacity worldwide and 2x46GWh = ~100GWh is used in PHEV/BEV. So there is 200GWh as of now that goes elsewhere. Renewable, scooters and electronics.



What do you think about these projects below?
To me these are indications of battery issues: availability (and maybe time to charge)
Just read an article about Hungary who is thinking of joining this German project or if that doesn't work out, start investing in H2 network. It takes 10 minutes to fill up a H2 truck. Hyundai and Cummins started a H2 truck project recently.

Delays in German electric highway project Elisa - electrive.com
Elonroad To Install EVolution Conductive Dynamic Charging In Sweden

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-cummins-fuel-cell-electric-commercial-vehicle/

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

What do you think about these projects below?
To me these are indications of battery issues: availability (and maybe time to charge)

Delays in German electric highway project Elisa - electrive.com
Elonroad To Install EVolution Conductive Dynamic Charging In Sweden

It's thinking stuck on can't-do-it-won't-do-it and the kinds of projects that have been worked on for a while.

It's always the same thinking that batteries are expensive, heavy and slow to charge so we need X. Catenaries, in-road charging, HFCV. V2G also comes from the same kind of thinking.

But as batteries become cheaper, lighter and faster to charge, and as manufacturing scales up, those other solutions don't seem as necessary or as valuable.

 

[acoste]

It's thinking stuck on can't-do-it-won't-do-it and the kinds of projects that have been worked on for a while.

It's always the same thinking that batteries are expensive, heavy and slow to charge so we need X. Catenaries, in-road charging, HFCV. V2G also comes from the same kind of thinking.

But as batteries become cheaper, lighter and faster to charge, and as manufacturing scales up, those other solutions don't seem as necessary or as valuable.

"as manufacturing scales up" this is the key. Not sure if you follow battery manufacturing capacity projections. There is none that is high enough to support all needs within 10 years. Even 20 years is a question without any breakthrough in chemistry.

 

[JRP3]

"as manufacturing scales up" this is the key. Not sure if you follow battery manufacturing capacity projections. There is none that is high enough to support all needs within 10 years. Even 20 years is a question without any breakthrough in chemistry.

Have you been following the speed of the Chinese Gigafactory construction? That shows how quickly a massive production facility can be built if the demand is there.

 

[acoste]

Have you been following the speed of the Chinese Gigafactory construction? That shows how quickly a massive production facility can be built if the demand is there.

Based on my assessment I believe it is the investments in mining industry and relatedly the uncertainty of future chemistry is the one that holds them back.

I can't find any other logical reasons. If I knew that NMC and NCA BEV is the future and I'm sitting on a huge nickel reserve, I would start digging it out right now regardless of current demand.