Hydrogen vs. Battery

[richkae]

Solar thermal generation allows you to smooth out electricity production in ways that PV does not.
I've read about some solutions that store the heat collected during the day ( in molten salt ) for generation overnight. I don't know how long it would be practical to store surplus heat for future electricity generation. It seems like a solvable engineering problem and you could store the heat for days.
Solar gas hybrid plants also allow most of the infrastructure to be shared, and you burn natural gas when the sun isn't bright enough.

Its not storing electriciy, but the Drake Landing Solar Community stores heat collected in the summer to heat homes in the winter: http://www.dlsc.ca/how.htm
( Yes that place really exists )

Even pumping water uphill using electricity from PV is probably more efficient than making a chemical fuel and then burning it.

 

[EV_de]

Even pumping water uphill using electricity from PV is probably more efficient than making a chemical fuel and then burning it.

http://www.zeit.de/2010/48/Pumpspeicherkraftwerk/seite-2

Google translation:

english

The geotechnical engineer Eugen Perau favored an underground solution not only because it is unobtrusive yet, "coal pits are up to a thousand meters deep, that's a big advantage," added head means more stored energy.. Addition, with the geothermal water also promote upward. Because it heats up automatically in depth, more than forty degrees Celsius, it is mine. This energy could be used for district heating. be laid for a pumped storage plant in underground pipes would have in the shafts and horizontal sections of the mine. "So you have to keep the existing structure, which of course makes it" expensive, "says the geotechnical engineer.

 

[AndrewBissell]

I agree with the various comments that say this or that technology would have better energy effiiciency. Indeed they will have. The issue is one of scale. The claim here is that synthetic gas gives you order of a year's store energy using existing infrastructure, whereas the alternatives like pumped storage hydro (about 90% roundtrip efficient) give order of just one day's storage.

Just to be clear I am not an apologist for this technology but I see some merit in their approach. It's thought through on the level of re-using existing infrastructure that today supports fossil fuels to help deliver a fully renewable electricity grid. Interesting.

 

[JRP3]

A properly designed grid would not need a huge amount of storage. A weeks worth would probably be more than enough.

 

[edo]

I read this (http://www.solar-fuel.net/fileadmin/user_upload/Publikationen/Wind2SNG_ZSW_IWES_SolarFuel_FVEE.pdf) which suggests >60% electricity to gas ...

I think that's a lot better than electrolysis of water... I remember something about 25%...

 

[dpeilow]

GM CEO: Fuel cell vehicles "won't be practical until the 2020-plus period" Autoblog Green

 

[Doug_G]

GM CEO: Fuel cell vehicles "won't be practical until the 2020-plus period" Autoblog Green

At which point someone will quote his successor, saying "won't be practical until the 2030 period". His successor will say "won't be practical until the 2040 period". The next guy will say "what's a fuel cell???"

 

[dpeilow]

Toyota says cost of FCHV-adv fuel cell protoytpe is $129,270 Autoblog Green

 

[doug]

5,000 Hydrogen Stations By 2020, For Forklifts, UPSes Cars

The largest driver of demand for hydrogen as a fuel 10 years hence will be ... forklifts, at 36 percent of the market. Another 27 percent was allocated to uninterruptible power supplies (UPS) to supply electricity in fixed locations.

Light-duty vehicles were projected to consume just one-third of the total hydrogen supply, and fuel-cell buses and scooters added a few more percentage points as well.

And that's remarkably different from the projections for "Hydrogen Highways" of a few years ago.

What is it with forklifts? I have a hard seeing how HFC forklifts make financial or environmental sense.

 

[rolosrevenge]

Forklifts operate inside buildings where normal exhaust can accumulate and become toxic to the workers. Even natural gas forklifts can produce CO which will accumulate. Hydrogen forklifts release water, so no problem. Electric forklifts release nothing, and are currently in use.

 

[doug]

Right, sorry, I meant compared to battery powered.
I guess the H2 folks would say the standard, range and refuel time. But I'd think fast charge or battery swaps would be more economical.

 

[richkae]

One of the funny advantages of the electric forklifts is that the battery is useful as ballast to keep the center of gravity down. It boggles me that the hydrogen nuts think that they will be able to compete with batteries for forklifts.

 

[dpeilow]

Forklifts are one of AV's biggest markets for their high power Posicharge systems. It's used for 24/7 operations in warehouses worldwide already, including by hydrogen proponents. I can't see what hydrogen brings to the party.

 

[TEG]

Refueling with hydrogen in an enclosed building doesn't sound like a very good idea either.

Forklifts are a great application as the warehouse typically has plenty of power outlets nearby for frequent recharge opportunities.

By the way:
White Zombie: electric-powered drag car

...{White Zombie} owner, forklift repair technician John Wayland...

 

[JRP3]

Not to mention he uses modified forklift motors in the Zombie.

 

[doug]

But you'd think that a business would just do what makes financial sense. I wouldn't think there are many brownie points for saying "we use hydrogen forklifts" compared to battery electric. I keep an open mind and can see potential advantages, but would really like to see a proper cost comparison.

This fuel-cell forklift thing may be catching on after all… -- Clean Break

Ballard Power saw a nice lift in its otherwise depressed stock price with the announcement today that it will supply at least 3,250 fuel cell stacks over the next 18 months to Plug Power, which will incorporate the stacks into its own fuel cell systems designed for the materials handling industry — i.e. forklifts.

All the touted benefits seem to be wrt lead acid battery forklift. I've used such a lift in the past to move equipment around and they do take a long time to recharge. But I'd think there would be better battery solutions available now. The hydrogen folks also claim a benefit to operating in cold environments (like refrigerated warehouses for grocery stores). That's possibly a valid point. So I'm open to being convinced either way. This could be a niche market for HFCs.

Plug Power - Solutions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDz-_ob2juw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogaqPKEvTDA
Solutions

 

[dpeilow]

Market forces don't work when there are fat subsidies being dished out.

 

[TEG]

...All the touted benefits seem to be wrt lead acid battery forklift. I've used such a lift in the past to move equipment around and they do take a long time to recharge.
..

When I was glancing through the Wayland/Zombie site I saw mention of them doing pack swaps. They said when you have a bunch of forklifts handy it makes it easy to lift a drained pack off, and fit a full pack to an otherwise spent forklift.
Then you just forklift the drained pack over to a charging station against the wall and start it recharging right away.

 

[doug]

Same arguments against lead acid battery swaps, but with a fast charge solution:

AeroVironment, Inc. (AV) : Industrial Electrical Vehicle Charging: PosiCharge™

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0Z9tt3se6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owj427ghBzc

 

[JRP3]

I'd like to see a total cost comparison and a "well" to wheels emissions comparison for both. These fast charge setups still seem to use lead acid, I'd bet a lithium forklift would do a full shift on a single charge if the 26 miles per shift figure is typical.