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Hypothetical : Using Red Diesel in Generator for Charging

Discussion in 'The UK and Ireland' started by WannabeOwner, Jul 28, 2018.

  1. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    Would that be cheaper than charging on E7? :rolleyes:
     
  2. Tevvy

    Tevvy Member

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    Good question! A 50 litre genny will run for about 48 hours. Don’t know what output you’ll get from that but it’s an interesting debate.
     
  3. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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  4. cpa

    cpa Active Member

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    Since y'all are across the pond, I have a question regarding your dyed diesel. Here in the Colonies, diesel that is dyed red is for off-road use only, and no road taxes are assessed on the product. It is used primarily for off-road farming and ranching, plus other sundry tasks like heavy construction.

    I would think that using a diesel generator with dyed fuel to charge a vehicle that would then take to the streets and highways would be in violation of the express purpose of off-road use and avoiding the road taxes, at least over here.

    Does England not assess taxes on petroleum fuels for automobiles and lorries?

    Does HRH QEII purchase tax-free diesel and petrol for her coaches and limousines?
     
  5. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    :) That's why this is a hypothetical question :) Although ... back in the mother nation we have a little sales tax on Electricity and actually some Fuel tax on Red Diesel, so on balance an EV might not actually be paying any less tax ...

    ... of course compared to looking at the fuel colour in the tank of a diesel vehicle, on the road, reverse engineering the electrons to see how they were generated will be a bit more of a challenge :)

    Road Fuel tax here is high. I can convert the price we pay per Litre into Imperial Gallons, but of course I am still embarrassed that my forebears stitched yours up centuries ago and pretended the gallon was smaller so they made more profit, so I'm not sure I can do the sums!

    Our fuel is £1.30 per litre. There are 4.54 Litres in an Imperial Gallon ... and Mr Google says there are only 3.785 Litres in a US gallon.

    So that would be £4.92 per US gallon which I make $6.45

    Pretty sure her coaches run on horse power and hay! ... although Prince Harry did have a rather nice Jaguar E-Type as his going away car from his wedding, which had been converted to Electric :)

    She pays tax, although not to quite the same formula as the rest of us ... and the government gives her an allowance, to pay for her stately duties. (That might well open a hornet's nest here! although compared to the cost of running your preseident in office I expect the cost of our monarch is a drop in the ocean)
     
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  6. .jg.

    .jg. Member

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    As it is "the Queen's highway", I understand that HM's official car doesn't have a number plate and is not registered, so I would guess that vehicle tax is not collected. I doubt even the officious types in HMRC would dare to demand a test of any of their Range Rovers.

    Anyway, red diesel can be used in generators but it is banned for use in propulsion (theoretically, you could use red diesel in a heater in a boat or vehicle). Taking the law literally, there is nothing which constrains the use of the electricity generated by a generator using red diesel and there is no requirement to identify the source of electricity used to charge an electric vehicle. [VAT is charged at 5% on domestic electricity supplies but at 20% for commercial/business use - so there is already a discrepancy when charging at home or at work]. However, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs tend to make things up as they go and seem to run like a protection racket, so I wouldn't like to test this idea.
     
  7. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    Red Diesel = 60p / Litre

    I've seen generator outputs around 14kWh per Gallon - but expect that is a USA gallon, so if that's right then 3.7 kWh per Litre, 16P per kWh ... no match for E7
     
  8. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    There are some diesel generators connected to the grid. I am fairly sure they run off red diesel. So you've probably charged your car off red diesel already....
     
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  9. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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  10. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

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    One of the elephants in the room with EVs is road tax.

    We're not paying it, at least here in the US - and there isn't an easy, simple way to fix that with the current tax structure.

    To tax the electricity in the same way they tax gasoline or diesel, you'd need a reliable way to segregate the electricity used for the car from the rest of the electricity undefeated by the home or business.

    The best suggestion I've heard so far was to convert all of the road taxes to some sort of per pound per mile charge, and pay it with the state car registration on an annual or biannual basis.

    This has two obvious flaws, though: the lion's share of the road tax is federal, but now it would be collected by the state's system for them.

    Worse, by definition it becomes post-paid - and folks in states like mine that allow five year registrations for new cars could build up a big tax bill running hundreds of thousands of miles - and then sell the car in year 5 and leave a big surprise for the next guy the register it.
     
  11. arg

    arg Supporting Member

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    That does seem the most plausible. Although there is potential to collect data about charging (as we were discussing on another thread about the powers taken under the Automated and Electric Vehicles Act), at best that's many years away - particularly if you want to make it secure against abuse. Apart from anything else, that means that the use of granny leads (and the need for them) needs to have been abolished by then.

    The state/federal issue doesn't apply in the UK. The accumulation issue is also less acute, as the obvious thing would be to combine it with the existing MOT test (annual after the first 3 years, and already collects the mileage).

    However, there have previously been proposals for 'road pricing' which would be variable per mile driven depending on type of road and time of day - via some kind of secure box in the car. If that were to happen, then that replaces the tax on fuel.
     
  12. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

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    Apart from the fact that "its complex" and "foreigners travel for free" I favour this as I think it would move commercial loads to overnight, and reduce congestion (higher price on congested roads). Could also be the existing number pate recognition cameras tracking how much highway miles were done maybe.

    Dunno if there is another way to get odometer readings at more regular intervals? I suppose nothing to stop folk self-declaring, and paying, in order not to have to pay big lump sum on vehicle-sale or year-3-MOT test

    We have (unless I am mistaken) a requirement to declare mileage on the transfer-of-sale document ... so could charge previous owner for the miles accumulate. Maybe you don't have that state-side? (The recording of mileage, at various points in the car's life, was introduced to stop cars being "clocked" and having their mileage altered so 2nd hand sale price could be jacked-up)
     
  13. Saghost

    Saghost Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you have to declare mileage at sale here, and they verify it during the registration process. Under the existing system there would be no way of knowing if they'd paid tax on the mileage yet. I suppose you could add a declaration as a sales requirement that states how much mileage still owes road tax when the registration tax system was implemented.
     
  14. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Well-Known Member

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    Not really a problem. It'd be costed at the point of conversion from the current state+fed fuel taxes.

    Doesn't _have_ to be post-paid. Could be paid in advance, with credits for overpayment and enforcement for underpayment.

    It's not like it's really complicated to handle. f(state,VIN, miles). Plus, vehicles have titles, so there's an existing mechanism to help enforcement. (States owed money could refuse to allow other states to surrender the title until monies owed are received, and prevent sale without payment.) Could even be added to NMVTIS if necessary.

    Also, since states have electronic tolling with accounts, it shouldn't take much effort to have the toll companies add payments. Or states could have their own payment system. We can already renew Registrations online. Paying mileage fees would just be another service.
     
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  15. Candleflame

    Candleflame Member

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    Not really effective. Someone did charge their Model X with a diesel generator once and it uses about 7L/100km. Definetly worth it for rural trips though without charging. i.e. potential africa road trip or north canada road trip.
     

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