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Discussion in 'Cars and Transportation' started by Adm, Feb 26, 2013.
I know in reality it doesn't really mean anything but I love telling it to people anyway.
Oh you mean the number 1 greenhouse gas!
0-60 in 12.5 seconds and max speed of 99mph? no thanks. need for speed. besides, I'd feel a bit uneasy sitting on top of hydrogen for some reason (as if gasoline is any worse though I guess).
Hydrogen is massively more flammable in air than gasoline, plus it is stored under high pressure, so you have good reason to be concerned.
What does the car cost?
Where does one refuel, and at what cost?
Performance isn't the issue here. Fuel Cells produce electricity, so the eventual idea is to replace a big battery with a much smaller one (to fill in instant demands on acceleration), but still keep the EV drivetrain. So future Tesla's could be fuel cell powered.
However, the running non-joke is that "fuel cells are the technology of the future and always will be."
Hydrogen Cars will never be better than EVs.
Because H2 Cars are normal EVs with (smaller) battery and an fuel cell as a Range extender.
One big issue of a fuel cell is that it works only on high load effectiv. That mean you drive 50 km with battery at one point the fuel cell starts with a high load and charges the battery while driving. The battery charge rised up and the fuel cell will stop and you drive the next time only with battery.
But the other big issue is, we have electricity, generate H2, store it, make again electricity out of it and loss by this processes much more power instead of charging a big battery pack and drive with this.
What are the main driving forces for buy and drive an EVs?
The main point is do reduce costs for mobility and H2 will never get cheap.
Today (numbers from 2011) 1 kg H2 costs round about 8 € (10,50 $), and there are no taxes inside.
People don't belive in EVs at all (in Germany) and complain about the costs. What could they say if they see the price of an H2 car ?
Other aspect, the German premium brands (BMW, Audi, Mercedes) are not able to build an EVs at all, why they should be able to build a H2 car ?
The battery spec of 24 kW, is almost certainly not kWh. 24 kWh would be way to big for a (non-plugin) hybrid vehicle like this. Also for hybrids the power spec (kW) is most important. Most batteries with the required power will have enough energy for regen and boosting the fuel cell power when needed.
If you drive slow the motor gets only feeded by the battery because the fuel cell can not run efficiently at loads down 50 %. Therefore we need a battery as a buffer.
For an EVs you can charge it at home all day whenever you want. One of the best option will be that you can produce your own electricity if you want. Out of Photovoltaik or Generator what so ever.
For H2 that is not possible you will be addiceted from a company that produces the H2 for costumers again. The same addiction like for gasoline.
The car costs around $165,000. (Copenhagen is buying 15 of them at that price.)
Hydrogen FCEVs are ridiculous. I tried to calculate the real world energy useage of the ix35 FCEV, based on the Leaf NEDC to EPA conversion rate, and arrived at a range of around 370 km and an electicity usage (when electrolyzing water) of around 1 kWh/km (1.6 kWh/mile).
With German electricity prices the energy useage cost difference works out to around $65,000 compared to a Leaf, over 15 years/150,000 miles. And that's only counting the energy, not the production equipment or filling stations.
This means that basically an ix35 would need to be a minimum of $65,000 cheaper than a Leaf to break even, when using hydrogen produced from electricity.
Given the numbers, it is fairly obvious that hydrogen FCEVs are basically CNG cars in fancy dress.
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Agree with this. The Mercedes F-cell has a 1.4 kWh battery, the Prius has a 1.3 kWh battery, and the ix35 probably has a battery in the same capacity range.
In the past I've read that H2 fuel cell cars relied completely on a particular chemical (fuel?) (consumable?) that begins with 'b'. That this chemical is actually rather expensive. Is this still the case?
I'm extremely skeptical of hydrogen as an efficient energy storage medium, but to be fair, high temperature nuclear reactors can produce hydrogen much more efficiently than other methods.
The industry pushing H2 cars instead of develop good pure EVs.
The fact is that the industry don't want do produce EVs and don't want to produce H2 cars.
The reason why they push the H2 car nowaday is because they want to take attention on H2 cars and not at the (not developed) EVs.
After some years of taking money from the government for researching in H2 car they will say H2 car are too expensive, lets go back to ICEs.
In my opinion, all brand espacially the German ones, are crying about too high costs in battery packs, and nobody would buy EVs because of the price.
But we would buy H2 cars with much more higher price ? Only because with H2 cars we don't have this "range issue"?
Why we need H2 stations and networks? Electricity for EVs is everywhere available.
Do you have a source?
Humboldt State University has a H2 fueling station and there are a few Rav4 hydrogen cars + a Prius around. The Hydrogen compressors and storage system seems to use a ton of energy. There are some pretty large electric panels (but no where to plug in my S). I'm not sure how much they are charging for the gas. Maybe I'll e-mail and try to find out..
...well, they said it isn't for sale to the public. Stupid.
Hydrogen seemed like a great idea to the Zeppelin transportation company too.
Only in Norwegian: Technical Magazine Google translated: Link
"De 15 bilene har en stykkpris på hele 960 000 kroner. De kjøpes med 45 prosent EU-støtte gjennom HyTec og Next Move og skal leveres innen april neste år." -> "The 15 vehicles have a unit cost of a whopping 960 000 Norwegian kroner. They are bought with 45% EU-support through HyTec and NextMove and will be delivered by next April."
It occurs to me that the price probably includes 25% VAT though, so the price is probably "only" around $132,000
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Found a Danish source: http://www.biopress.dk/PDF/Nyhedsbrev_29-2012_02.pdf
"Brintbilerne koster hver 960.000 kroner, hvoraf EU betaler 40-45 procent. Flere producenter har annonceret priser på omkring 300.000 kroner i 2015, når bilerne forventes at blive markedsført til en større kreds af brugere." ->
"The Hydrogen cars each cost 960,000 Danish Kroner, of which the EU will pay 40-45%. Several car companies have announced prices around 300,000 Danish Kroner in 2015, when the cars are expected to be marketed to a wider customer base."
960,000 Danish kroner is $168,250 at the current exchange rate.
300,000 Danish kroner is $52,600 at the current exchange rate.
It doesn't say if the price is with or without VAT.
The price of the car is one point. But whats about the costs for driving?
The costs will be equal to ICE cars.
Where should be the advantage?
Ok you can say the environment, but what should be my personal advantage ?
Found another source: Link
This one mentions 750,000 Danish Kroner, so I suspect that's before VAT and fees and the 960,000 is after VAT and fees.
750,000 Danish Kroner is $135,500 at the current exchange rate.
My main attraction to EVs is being able to make my own fuel (via solar panels) and not having to rely on other companies for fuel.
With hydrogen I'm going back to the ICE ways of paying what they tell me to pay, or else I don't get to drive
(lol I realize I still need an electric company for fuel, but they are far more stable when it comes to prices, and with solar ill be able to offset what I used)
An advanced way will be to install an battery pack in your house. About noon you would feed the battery with solar panels and in the evening you can consume the power from the noon.
Very effectiv and you get this power form nothing (only the investment of the system).
That can be a future.