I always chuckle when I see this. It isn't one-pedal driving. It's one-pedal-plus-one-hand.
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Hyundai KonaEV
- Thread starter AndY1
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KiwiME
Member
Completely agree. I have a Kona but I'm perfectly willing to call a spade a spade. It would have been easy enough to include a one pedal mode but they choose not to, for some reason. There are plenty of other bugs in the design, but that's another story.
Amusingly, if you hold the left paddle back continuously you can still drive (somewhat) normally by applying the go-pedal concurrently and it will act as one-pedal mode should when you relax the pedal.
I'm not a big fan of one-pedal anyway because it complicates my reaction time in the event of an emergency stop being required.
Amusingly, if you hold the left paddle back continuously you can still drive (somewhat) normally by applying the go-pedal concurrently and it will act as one-pedal mode should when you relax the pedal.
I'm not a big fan of one-pedal anyway because it complicates my reaction time in the event of an emergency stop being required.
In what way?
To me, heavier regen seems like an advantage in emergency stop situations because it automatically slows the car between the time you take your foot off the accelerator pedal when you realize something is wrong and the time that you fully apply the brake pedal for an emergency stop.
I’m guessing that most people probably pause a bit during that process as they grasp the situation and the need for coming to an emergency stop. Having a one-pedal heavy regen in the meantime means they will be at a lower speed by the time they really slam on the brakes.
I’d be interested in seeing any actual scientific studies into this topic.
KiwiME
Member
Because my reaction time to hit the brake pedal is about as fast as humanly possible! As you can imagine it's purely an academic point that slowing by level 3 (the highest) fixed regen during the reaction period reduces the required stopping distance. Of course it must, but the contribution can just as easily shown to be negligible. Equally, saying that "most people probably pause" is another statement where you know all people have a reaction time greater than zero which can be termed a "pause", the point is that driving practice and acquired skills minimise this delay and getting accustomed to the left-paddle-pull-to stop is counter-productive as it only adds another level of decision making when a skilled driver should be reacting subconsciously.
The brake pedal on the Kona can apply 119 kW of pure regen at 100 km/h and 133 kW at 167 km/h based on tests by myself and another driver in Germany. I haven't got precise numbers yet for level 3 (highest using the paddle) regen but I normally see around 75 kW at 100 km/hr. Another note is that paddle-based regen is disabled when the brake pedal is pressed, so if you apply the pedal during a paddle-based stop you don't get a combined effect. This can be disconcerting when you miscalculate the end point of a paddle-only stop and need to hit the brake pedal as well, and, as a result find you have to press much harder than expected. This is the second reason why I mostly use the brake pedal now. One of the 4 fixed regen levels can simply be picked when convenient to suit the general road conditions such as hills or flat.
The Kona's mechanical brakes are not used when pressing the pedal unless you exceed the maximum available regen or are going very slowly, or near stopped. The PM motor is rated at 150 kW so the regen numbers seem to match.
The brake pedal on the Kona can apply 119 kW of pure regen at 100 km/h and 133 kW at 167 km/h based on tests by myself and another driver in Germany. I haven't got precise numbers yet for level 3 (highest using the paddle) regen but I normally see around 75 kW at 100 km/hr. Another note is that paddle-based regen is disabled when the brake pedal is pressed, so if you apply the pedal during a paddle-based stop you don't get a combined effect. This can be disconcerting when you miscalculate the end point of a paddle-only stop and need to hit the brake pedal as well, and, as a result find you have to press much harder than expected. This is the second reason why I mostly use the brake pedal now. One of the 4 fixed regen levels can simply be picked when convenient to suit the general road conditions such as hills or flat.
The Kona's mechanical brakes are not used when pressing the pedal unless you exceed the maximum available regen or are going very slowly, or near stopped. The PM motor is rated at 150 kW so the regen numbers seem to match.
Can you say more about how you determined these numbers? Is there another discussion thread about that? Are those numbers taken from the car’s displays, were they taken using an OBD reader, or were the somehow hand calculated based on a physics model? Any photo or video evidence?
Thanks!
KiwiME
Member
These are based on readings off the Kona's power display which separates out traction power, which I gather you probably already know about. I can only assume it's accurate enough but there is an averaging delay so it needs careful observation. The German driver posted a video (below) but I just made notes of my simple test since. I also did the Level 3 paddle test a few days ago and got 89 kW at 100 km/h.
There is a physics model which seems to have been created by an engineering student a few months ago. It does appear be well thought out but of course gathering accurate empirical data to populate and validate the output is difficult. But, by using it to emulate driving up, and then back down the steepest configurable hill at a speed low enough to avoid aerodynamic effects but high enough to minimise the error from quiescent electrical loads, I estimated regen efficiency (if I recall correctly) at 75%. Without a chassis dyno I can't see any other way to measure that on the road to within about 2%.
Here's the link to the model:
Hyundai Kona EV consumption by temperature, speed, humidity and height
There is a physics model which seems to have been created by an engineering student a few months ago. It does appear be well thought out but of course gathering accurate empirical data to populate and validate the output is difficult. But, by using it to emulate driving up, and then back down the steepest configurable hill at a speed low enough to avoid aerodynamic effects but high enough to minimise the error from quiescent electrical loads, I estimated regen efficiency (if I recall correctly) at 75%. Without a chassis dyno I can't see any other way to measure that on the road to within about 2%.
Here's the link to the model:
Hyundai Kona EV consumption by temperature, speed, humidity and height
Ulmo
Active Member
Wow, these Hyundai Electric Kona stats are great! Great safety ratings for 258 EPA miles range for the $38K-$46K range, and they are available in lots near me right now! (In my experience in my Tesla S60D*, 240 EPA miles of range is the sweet spot for minimum practical use in day to day usage; anything less is highly problematic and too often insufficient, and anything more is almost always just luxury.)
2019 Hyundai Kona
Hyundai Electric Kona 4 Door SUV EV Ultimate $46,065: Good safety ratings for fully loaded crossover EV with decent range (258 EPA (unrealistic) miles) at a decent price available now in lots; I found many in inventory at dealers (safety rating only applies to Ultimate, because of headlamps and auto-stopping systems, but I think if you have good eyesight and brain brake reaction times, you could do as well with lesser cost Kona electric (also 258 EPA miles range); entry cost is $38,295 and I found those in inventory at nearby dealers too):
* Footnote: my Tesla Model S 60D was 218 EPA miles of range, and it was never enough for most days; if I did anything but go straight to work then back home with no evening appointments on the normal route, I had to top up on some fast charger in the middle of a worsening commute (usually an inconvenient Chademo somewhere before the recent SuperCharger buildout), and its lack of range severely impacted my sleep and health; all I usually needed was another 15 real miles or so (or a total of 240 EPA miles of range); the 258 EPA miles of range of the Kona is more than enough for practical use in comparison. (Elon was right when he said that the Model 3 Standard Range Plus of 240 EPA miles range was the "sweet spot" for range, especially in my experience.)
2019 Hyundai Kona
Hyundai Electric Kona 4 Door SUV EV Ultimate $46,065: Good safety ratings for fully loaded crossover EV with decent range (258 EPA (unrealistic) miles) at a decent price available now in lots; I found many in inventory at dealers (safety rating only applies to Ultimate, because of headlamps and auto-stopping systems, but I think if you have good eyesight and brain brake reaction times, you could do as well with lesser cost Kona electric (also 258 EPA miles range); entry cost is $38,295 and I found those in inventory at nearby dealers too):
* Footnote: my Tesla Model S 60D was 218 EPA miles of range, and it was never enough for most days; if I did anything but go straight to work then back home with no evening appointments on the normal route, I had to top up on some fast charger in the middle of a worsening commute (usually an inconvenient Chademo somewhere before the recent SuperCharger buildout), and its lack of range severely impacted my sleep and health; all I usually needed was another 15 real miles or so (or a total of 240 EPA miles of range); the 258 EPA miles of range of the Kona is more than enough for practical use in comparison. (Elon was right when he said that the Model 3 Standard Range Plus of 240 EPA miles range was the "sweet spot" for range, especially in my experience.)
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Ulmo
Active Member
Very excellent and relevant review of that. Due to your description (which is the second I've heard of those paddles), I think they're just designed for freeway driving when you have to slowly adjust your speed for upcoming changes in velocity.
You're spot on for everything else you said that isn't vehicle related (since I don't have a Kona so can't confirm those things); for instance, training for brain interpretation of good braking events (vs events where you should not brake) and very fast brain to physical brake reaction time WORKS VERY WELL, and you should train often for this. That and every other driving reaction, like honking for danger (in front or in back), steering, whatever.
Ulmo
Active Member
I just test drove one of these Hyundai Kona Electric SELs, and I found it comfortable. It seems like racing cars are made for short narrow jockies and family cars are made for regular men and women, and this is more of the latter.
It drove really nicely (see one exception below). I liked the drive feel, responsiveness, etc. I declined to take it on the freeway, but up to 40mph it was really nice.
The one problem I had with it is also something racing jockies would love: it is not disconnected enough from the road. It seems like it has no attempt at luxury comfort, so they try to make the potholes and bumps in the road as sharp as possible. I don’t know what this would be like in a full ownership situation, but I fear.
Also the rear seats visually have very little leg room (I didn’t bother trying to sit in them as a result).
Since it is not a luxury car, it let in a fair amount of the ambient noise. I would consider that unacceptable in a Tesla Model S or X, but this is fine for a regular car.
Everything else about it was great. The A/C worked great. The controls are easy. Everything was basic and straightforward. I recommend anyone interested in a crossover to consider whether this would work for them. It only has 200hp but it has smooth acceleration and a chauffeur stop that is the best in any car I’ve ever driven. This is a great regular car (if you live in a town without bumpy roads, or like the rodeo feeling of California government maintenance).
Everything about my review begs someone test drive it more to answer more questions. Since Bjorn has test driven these extensively, that might suffice to fill in those gaps!
It drove really nicely (see one exception below). I liked the drive feel, responsiveness, etc. I declined to take it on the freeway, but up to 40mph it was really nice.
The one problem I had with it is also something racing jockies would love: it is not disconnected enough from the road. It seems like it has no attempt at luxury comfort, so they try to make the potholes and bumps in the road as sharp as possible. I don’t know what this would be like in a full ownership situation, but I fear.
Also the rear seats visually have very little leg room (I didn’t bother trying to sit in them as a result).
Since it is not a luxury car, it let in a fair amount of the ambient noise. I would consider that unacceptable in a Tesla Model S or X, but this is fine for a regular car.
Everything else about it was great. The A/C worked great. The controls are easy. Everything was basic and straightforward. I recommend anyone interested in a crossover to consider whether this would work for them. It only has 200hp but it has smooth acceleration and a chauffeur stop that is the best in any car I’ve ever driven. This is a great regular car (if you live in a town without bumpy roads, or like the rodeo feeling of California government maintenance).
Everything about my review begs someone test drive it more to answer more questions. Since Bjorn has test driven these extensively, that might suffice to fill in those gaps!
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The Niro is supposed to have a slightly more comfortable ride. Some people say it's too comfortable, they want more connection to the road... Can't please everyone
As for noise, it's not luxury car levels but it's better than the Model 3. Again, the Niro is better in that respect, being more comparable to the new Leaf.
The Kona gives you a bit more range and a bit more tech, and looks good, the Niro is a bit more conservative and refined.
KiwiME
Member
Locally (NZ) the one model of the eNiro 64kWh available is the same price as the Kona base model, NZ$75k. Kona top model is NZ$81k the only model of any with NAV (all prices out the door, all taxes, and we don't get any incentives.) Advantages of the eNiro are that the interior is nicer, there is more room in the back seat and trunk space, and it has LED headlights which my base Kona is missing. I did note in specs that the drive ratio is slightly different (Kona 7.981, eNiro 8.206). The one disadvantage of our ENiro is that it doesn't have the heat pump, which in my limited use of it in the Kona, works extremely well. I certainly agree that the eNiro seems more conservative with chrome door handles and fuddy-duddy styling.
Having poked around in the Kona "under the hood" so to speak, I will have to say that it (and probably most cars these days) is built to a price. Thin metal, thin glass, thin wires, cheap plastics and multiple CAN buses doing everything. My last car, a 2015 VW Cross Polo 1.2 TSI, built in South Africa, was a very well screwed-together car, quality materials everywhere, quality perhaps many wouldn't notice or appreciate. The Kona has numerous minor oversights, signs of being rushed into production. It does drive and handle well though. Complaints of excess noise have certain validity but our roads use coarse chip seal and most cars can't mask that anyway.
Having poked around in the Kona "under the hood" so to speak, I will have to say that it (and probably most cars these days) is built to a price. Thin metal, thin glass, thin wires, cheap plastics and multiple CAN buses doing everything. My last car, a 2015 VW Cross Polo 1.2 TSI, built in South Africa, was a very well screwed-together car, quality materials everywhere, quality perhaps many wouldn't notice or appreciate. The Kona has numerous minor oversights, signs of being rushed into production. It does drive and handle well though. Complaints of excess noise have certain validity but our roads use coarse chip seal and most cars can't mask that anyway.
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