Hyundai KonaEV

[banned-66611]

What's up with this trend of comparing vehicles to older, larger Teslas with less efficient motors? The Tesla to compare a new Kona with is a new Model 3. Full stop. Any other comparison is just silly. It's like comparing a Yaris to an old pickup.

Reason for the comparison is Bjorn owns a Model X P90D. It's not a completely useless comparison though, because the P90D has a range of a little under 300 miles which is the same as the Kona.

Model 3 LR

Yes but the equivalent spec M3 LR+AP costs $20,000 more, so I'd expect it to be a little better. Although I bet in practice if you raced the two over a long distance they would be about the same.

250 EPA miles on 64 usable kWh is 256 Wh/mi

But it depends on so many factors. EPA range is just one measure, WLTP is another, and then there is reality. Bjorn is an expert at getting good range from EVs. He calculates the best speed and charging strategy. His driving skills are well proven.

310 (downrated) EPA miles

220 if we are being fair.

Bjørn has a real soft spot for Hyundais and always has

LOL. Apart from being a Tesla fanboy he was pretty up front about the limitations of the Ioniq.

I couldn't help but slap my forehead watching him talk about how "streamlined" it is, when that car isn't even remotely that streamlined. Exposed door handles, bulbous front end designed to hold an ICE, reduced rear taper, irregular underside, etc, etc, etc. I've seen numbers for the Cd of 0,29 cited, although people might be confusing that with the gasoline Kona. But certainly nothing spectacular. There's a reason his energy consumption went up so much at 120 kph.

And yet he did 510km on one charge... Could it be that exposed door handles don't make much difference after all? Hyundai clearly know what they are doing, the Ioniq long term performance proves that. And at 125kph he was still seeing a solid 220 miles, which is the rated range of the Model 3 SR at considerably lower speeds.

If Hyundai was turning a decent profit on these (or any profit), they'd be making them in far larger volumes. They're not so they clearly don't.

Unlikely. It's all about risk management. New model, new drivetrain, new battery, new software. If you rush out huge numbers there is a risk you will end up fixing huge numbers when some problem is found. So you ramp up a bit more slowly. Nissan made this mistake with the Leaf 40 and rapidgate, and are trying to avoid a recall.

Tesla took a big gamble with the M3, but it seems to be paying off. The problems that plagued the S and X seem to have been mostly resolved and they haven't had anything like the drive unit failures. But they also did a lot to mitigate the risk, e.g. the drive unit is very easy to replace on the M3.

 

[banned-66611]

To be fair, it doesn't accelerate as fast as the Bolt EV does either, I don't think the battery is the issue. I would suspect either the BMS or the tire compound is limiting the fun.

The tyres definitely limit it. Bjorn was able to spin them very easily. Replacing with performance ones could be fun. Will be interesting to see some real world 0-100 times too.

 

[diamond.g]

Reason for the comparison is Bjorn owns a Model X P90D. It's not a completely useless comparison though, because the P90D has a range of a little under 300 miles which is the same as the Kona.



Yes but the equivalent spec M3 LR+AP costs $20,000 more, so I'd expect it to be a little better. Although I bet in practice if you raced the two over a long distance they would be about the same.



But it depends on so many factors. EPA range is just one measure, WLTP is another, and then there is reality. Bjorn is an expert at getting good range from EVs. He calculates the best speed and charging strategy. His driving skills are well proven.



220 if we are being fair.



LOL. Apart from being a Tesla fanboy he was pretty up front about the limitations of the Ioniq.



And yet he did 510km on one charge... Could it be that exposed door handles don't make much difference after all? Hyundai clearly know what they are doing, the Ioniq long term performance proves that. And at 125kph he was still seeing a solid 220 miles, which is the rated range of the Model 3 SR at considerably lower speeds.



Unlikely. It's all about risk management. New model, new drivetrain, new battery, new software. If you rush out huge numbers there is a risk you will end up fixing huge numbers when some problem is found. So you ramp up a bit more slowly. Nissan made this mistake with the Leaf 40 and rapidgate, and are trying to avoid a recall.

Tesla took a big gamble with the M3, but it seems to be paying off. The problems that plagued the S and X seem to have been mostly resolved and they haven't had anything like the drive unit failures. But they also did a lot to mitigate the risk, e.g. the drive unit is very easy to replace on the M3.

Out of curiosity where you are, does the BMW 318i and the Kona gas edition cost the same amount?

 

[miimura]

70kW isn't that bad to be honest. Superchargers drop down to that fairly quickly (at least on my 75D) so I will be happy with that when mine gets delivered.

The Model 3 LR Supercharges significantly faster than your 75D. It can maintain 115kW beyond 50% SOC. It doesn't drop to 70kW until about 70% SOC. The 3's higher efficiency amplifies the faster charging by allowing you to drive more miles than an S or X for the same kWh added.

 

[miimura]

The tyres definitely limit it. Bjorn was able to spin them very easily. Replacing with performance ones could be fun. Will be interesting to see some real world 0-100 times too.

Almost every front wheel drive EV has a traction problem under acceleration. The reason is that acceleration transfers weight and therefore traction off the driven wheels. RWD or AWD EVs are superior for acceleration.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Still will supercharge over twice as fast (mph) in a Model 3 (particularly for higher-speed driving), and that's assuming that you can find high-power CCS stations for the Kona. It's also a small econobox, planned for very limited production (40k Kona+Niro per year). That said... no question they'll sell every last one they make.

That’s disappointing.
I thought these newer cars are supposed to have 100kw charging.
I think the 2019 LEAF will have 100kw

 

[KarenRei]

That’s disappointing.
I thought these newer cars are supposed to have 100kw charging.
I think the 2019 LEAF will have 100kw

Bjørn connected it to a 180kW charger. The Kona maxed out at 70kW, and cut back at 56% from there. Unless there's something wrong with the charger, that's all she can do.

I was a bit disappointed by that as well. On the upside, it's a more efficient vehicle than I was expecting (although Bjørn's comparison hyperbole was not to his credit), the battery pack size was on the higher end of expectations, and the car had more measured clearance than I expected (I think the way the battery pack "juts out" makes it look lower than it is). On the downside, it's even more "econoboxy" inside than I expected. And every bit as small as I expected. And that "autopilot" it has looks terrifying.

 

[RiverBrick]

So you ramp up a bit more slowly.

How does the Ioniq EV ramp look so far?

In my province of Quebec sales are on a down ramp due to lack of supply. Of course, this could just mean that Hyundai is giving priority to other markets. However, Hyundai mentioned a battery shortage as the cause in a note to dealers. In theory, this would mean a worldwide down ramp.

 

[banned-66611]

Out of curiosity where you are, does the BMW 318i and the Kona gas edition cost the same amount?

The top of the range AWD fossil Kona is in the same ballpark as the low end 318i.

I move around Europe.

 

[KarenRei]

How does the Ioniq EV ramp look so far?

In my province of Quebec sales are on a down ramp due to lack of supply. Of course, this could just mean that Hyundai is giving priority to other markets. However, Hyundai mentioned a battery shortage as the cause in a note to dealers. In theory, this would mean a worldwide down ramp.

They went from 12k per year to 20k per year. No announced planned increases since then. As mentioned, Kona + Niro next year is expected at 40k, so again, expect around 20k each.

These are low numbers. Aka, compliance cars. With such low volumes, Hyundai can sell them for basically whatever they want.

 

[scaesare]

It's all about risk management. New model, new drivetrain, new battery, new software. If you rush out huge numbers there is a risk you will end up fixing huge numbers when some problem is found. So you ramp up a bit more slowly.

I suspect this isn't "all" about risk management.

Battery supply issues are significant issues that have affected both rollout and volume capabilities from several manufacturers. The I-Pace was just pushed back for this reason, and another manufacturer (can't remember whom right now), just announced similar...

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Bjørn connected it to a 180kW charger. The Kona maxed out at 70kW, and cut back at 56% from there. Unless there's something wrong with the charger, that's all she can do.

Still, 70kW is significantly better than the Bolt's mid-50skW max. At 3mpkWh, 15kW is 45mph difference. At 4mpkWh, 15kW is 60mph difference. Adding 45 or 60 miles extra per hour of charging significantly improves the drive:charge ratio. Raising that ratio is important to turn long-range BEVs into long-distance BEVs and make them more appealing.

 

[KarenRei]

Oh, no question. Please don't interpret me as hating on the Kona. In its price range, I think it's the most "interesting" non-Tesla out there, and they'll obviously sell all ~20k they make per year without any challenge. I just have an issue with hyperbole and misleading comparisons

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

It’s just truly sad how gutless these legacy car executives are.
Only dipping their toes in the water with EVs - for me it speaks volumes of the intellectual difference between a scientist & a business person.
Tesla are soooooo far ahead

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Hyundai Kona Electric review: new BEV tested

 

[banned-66611]

Aka, compliance cars.

LOL. You have some strange ideas about compliance cars. They usually just buy a model from someone else, re-badge it and add it to their line-up.

The Kona is a very serious EV. They put a lot of effort into making it efficient, just like they did with the Ioniq. The battery is a real breakthrough in terms of cost and performance. For all the talk of the gigafactory Panasonic/Tesla were beaten to it by LG, and when you think that LG/Hyundai are offering ~68kWh for less than Tesla plans to charge for 50kWh in a stripped down minimalist car... That's over 26% extra capacity.

Hopefully they can ramp up production with the demand. But by your logic the Roadster and Model S and X were compliance cars, only made in small numbers and priced to discourage sales. Tesla was making huge losses on them. Yep, definitely compliance cars

 

[KarenRei]

LOL. You have some strange ideas about compliance cars. They usually just buy a model from someone else, re-badge it and add it to their line-up. The Kona is a very serious EV.

If by "serious" you mean "produced in seriously small numbers", yes.

I'll repeat: if they were turning a profit on these, they'd be producing them in far larger numbers. They're not. So they're not. Same story as with the Ioniq.

The battery is a real breakthrough in terms of cost and performance.

Yes, when you're only producing 40k Kona + Niro globally per year, you can sell them for whatever you want. With only ~20k electric Konas per year, they could bloody well pay people to take them.

 

[banned-66611]

The Kona is incredibly efficient. Bjorn is very impressed.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Yep, the Kona has proven it is a true long distance car

 

[daktari]

The Kona EV has made me realize a few things. (even if the X is a silly model to compare against. Audi SQ7 vs Q2...)
Reduced performance means smaller tires means higher efficiency. Will Tesla go the Leaf route or like a Renault Scenic with tall&narrow tires?

High efficiency will give you you adequate range with a smaller and cheaper pack (3 also demonstrates this). Also a huge benefit when destination charging.

The Kona is another few nails in the ICE coffin.