I am now planning to get the full self-driving option and here is why

[Saghost]

Who is liable for crashes with FSD? If you read the wording, it says "no action required by the person in the drivers seat". I can't believe Tesla will pay for accidents because even at 10x better than human there will still be statistically some accidents. They're aiming for 1x or 2x. So that makes YOU liable. Who here will trust Tesla to drive itself and if it crashes you'll just hope no one's hurt or killed and then you'll just pull out your wallet? Seems complicated to me...

That's the biggest part of the level 2 to level 3 leap, and likely the reason no one has really gone that far yet.

On a level 2 car, the driver is clearly responsible for any accident, even if the level 2 system is active at the time of crash.

On a level 3 car, the manufacturer is responsible if the accident occurs while in self driving without an alert - or even within the alert period specified.

It'll be interesting to see how the insurance piece of that works - Tesla buys insurance for the fleet for those conditions, and you get cheaper insurance for the rest of the time?

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Who is liable for crashes with FSD? If you read the wording, it says "no action required by the person in the drivers seat". I can't believe Tesla will pay for accidents because even at 10x better than human there will still be statistically some accidents. They're aiming for 1x or 2x. So that makes YOU liable. Who here will trust Tesla to drive itself and if it crashes you'll just hope no one's hurt or killed and then you'll just pull out your wallet? Seems complicated to me...

I have thought long and hard on this one as I feel like this is going to ultimately be the tipping point on self driving technology. I think that as long as there is a way to disengage the auto driving system while still moving, the person in the driver's seat will be considered the "pilot in command" and will be ultimately responsible for the actions the car takes. The only way the car (or manufacturer) could be held at fault is if the controls were rendered inactive or even better, retractable so they weren't even available to the passengers when the system is engaged.

Dan

 

[Dan Detweiler]

That's the biggest part of the level 2 to level 3 leap, and likely the reason no one has really gone that far yet.

On a level 2 car, the driver is clearly responsible for any accident, even if the level 2 system is active at the time of crash.

On a level 3 car, the manufacturer is responsible if the accident occurs while in self driving without an alert - or even within the alert period specified.

It'll be interesting to see how the insurance piece of that works - Tesla buys insurance for the fleet for those conditions, and you get cheaper insurance for the rest of the time?

I would respectfully have to say that driver responsibility goes much deeper than you suggest. (see above post)

Dan

 

[Saghost]

I have thought long and hard on this one as I feel like this is going to ultimately be the tipping point on self driving technology. I think that as long as there is a way to disengage the auto driving system while still moving, the person in the driver's seat will be considered the "pilot in command" and will be ultimately responsible for the actions the car takes. The only way the car (or manufacturer) could be held at fault is if the controls were rendered inactive or even better, retractable so they weren't even available to the passengers when the system is engaged.

Dan

Disagree. The SAE automation levels clearly define responsibility. To be a level 3 car, it has to drive safely with no input and provide warning in advance of a potential problem. A level 4 car has to drive safely even if the driver never reacts.

That division of responsibility clearly implies a matching division of liability.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Disagree. The SAE automation levels clearly define responsibility. To be a level 3 car, it has to drive safely with no input and provide warning in advance of a potential problem. A level 4 car has to drive safely even if the driver never reacts.

That division of responsibility clearly implies a matching division of liability.

No, I really don't think you can make that correlation. It does not delegate legal responsibility in case of a crash while using the system. It just delineates what it must be able to do to be considered in that category. I really think that the driver in command will have ultimate responsibility for safety up to the point that they have no control available to them. Besides, the courts will ultimately decide who is responsible, not the SAE.

Just my opinion of course, time will tell.

Dan

 

[Saghost]

No, I really don't think you can make that correlation. It does not delegate legal responsibility in case of a crash while using the system. It just delineates what it must be able to do to be considered in that category. I really think that the driver in command will have ultimate responsibility for safety up to the point that they have no control available to them. Besides, the courts will ultimately decide who is responsible, not the SAE.

Just my opinion of course, time will tell.

Dan

If a passenger in a car notices that the driver is incapacitated, are they legally liable if they don't manage to jump in and prevent a crash?

What if they just see the driver distracted or driving in a dangerous manner?

Does this answer change if they're in a driver's ed car with dual controls (but still the passenger of a licensed driver)?

In a level 3 or higher car, the car is the driver, at least some of the time. While I would hope that the passenger with a steering wheel in front of them will jump in to prevent an accident, I don't see how it can be their fault if the car crashes without them attempting to intervene.

(That does open a new can of worms, though - what if the car screws up and sets up an accident, and the person with the wheel jumps in and tries to prevent it, but fails? That person was clearly driving at the time of the accident, so normally they'd be liable, but the car is the one that screwed up, as I argued above, if they didn't grab the wheel at the last second, they shouldn't be liable.)

 

[Dr. J]

That person was clearly driving at the time of the accident, so normally they'd be liable, but the car is the one that screwed up, as I argued above, if they didn't grab the wheel at the last second, they shouldn't be liable.

....and would you be able to get the logs from the manufacturer?

 

[Dan Detweiler]

If a passenger in a car notices that the driver is incapacitated, are they legally liable if they don't manage to jump in and prevent a crash?

What if they just see the driver distracted or driving in a dangerous manner?

Does this answer change if they're in a driver's ed car with dual controls (but still the passenger of a licensed driver)?

In a level 3 or higher car, the car is the driver, at least some of the time. While I would hope that the passenger with a steering wheel in front of them will jump in to prevent an accident, I don't see how it can be their fault of the car crashes without them attempting to intervene.

(That does open a new can of worms, though - what if the car screws up and sets up an accident, and the person with the wheel jumps in and tries to prevent it, but fails? That person was clearly driving at the time of the accident, so normally they'd be liable, but the car is the one that screwed up, as I argued above, if they didn't grab the wheel at the last second, they shouldn't be liable.)

I'm sorry, you lost me on your analogies. In both cases, the driver is legally responsible regardless. The question is when does the legal driver cease being the human in the front left seat (or right seat if you're in the UK or Japan. LOL!)? That question, in my opinion, is NOT answered by the list of requirements for the various levels of autonomy. In truth, nobody knows at which point this takes place because a) there aren't any cars that meet those requirements yet, b) there has been no written statements legally approved and adopted stating legal liability and the specifics involved and, c) there has been no litigation challenging or affirming any stated or implied liability.

We have airplanes that can take off, fly a flight plan, and safely land all on their own. But even with all of that, the pilot in command is ALWAYS responsible for safe operation of the aircraft because he has the ability to over ride the auto pilot at any time. I see driving as no different.

These are all questions that I feel are going to take time to iron out. Hey, I'm all for that cool retractable steering wheel I keep seeing come up on concept cars!

Dan

 

[TT97]

In a level 3 or higher car, the car is the driver, at least some of the time. While I would hope that the passenger with a steering wheel in front of them will jump in to prevent an accident, I don't see how it can be their fault of the car crashes without them attempting to intervene.

While it will be the courts to ultimately decide, SAE does change liability between Level 3 & 4.

Level 3
Conditional Automation - the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Level 4
High Automation - the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Between Level 3 & 4, the "Fallback Performance of Dynamic Driving Task" switches from the human driver to the system.

 

[Saghost]

While it will be the courts to ultimately decide, SAE does change liability between Level 3 & 4.

Level 3
Conditional Automation - the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Level 4
High Automation - the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Between Level 3 & 4, the "Fallback Performance of Dynamic Driving Task" switches from the human driver to the system.

Right. So an accident is the car's fault in level 3 if it doesn't ask for intervention (adequately in advance,) and at all times in level 4.

As you say, it'll ultimately be the courts that decide/enforce the liability, but I think clear limits are implicit in the level definitions, and level 3 starts having cases where the car is liable...

 

[Az_Rael]

but the car is the one that screwed up, as I argued above, if they didn't grab the wheel at the last second, they shouldn't be liable.)

That already kind of happens now. You are supposed to have your hands on the wheel at all times, but AP2 sure can take you for an unexpected detour in a hurry (equivalent to the passenger suddenly grabbing the wheel). The car got you into that situation and if you couldnt react in time to get yourself out, its still the drivers fault.

I guess the difference with Level 3 is the car should give you time to take over vs immediate take over. So how many seconds do you get to react before you are liable vs the car? I would assume as soon as you take the control, it is your responsibility even if the car got you there in the first place just like today.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

While it will be the courts to ultimately decide, SAE does change liability between Level 3 & 4.

Level 3
Conditional Automation - the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task with the expectation that the human driver will respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Level 4
High Automation - the driving mode-specific performance by an automated driving system of all aspects of the dynamic driving task, even if a human driver does not respond appropriately to a request to intervene.

Between Level 3 & 4, the "Fallback Performance of Dynamic Driving Task" switches from the human driver to the system.

Sorry, call me a nit picker, but what you quote specifies FUNCTIONALITY. It does not specify LIABILITY. It is my contention that the two terms are NOT interchangeable. Any 3rd rate lawyer representing a manufacturer would shoot this full of holes very quickly. I don't think there is any way this gets through regulation for release to the public without the liability quiestion being clearly delineated and defined.

Dan

 

[Saghost]

That already kind of happens now. You are supposed to have your hands on the wheel at all times, but AP2 sure can take you for an unexpected detour in a hurry (equivalent to the passenger suddenly grabbing the wheel). The car got you into that situation and if you couldnt react in time to get yourself out, its still the drivers fault.

I guess the difference with Level 3 is the car should give you time to take over vs immediate take over. So how many seconds do you get to react before you are liable vs the car? I would assume as soon as you take the control, it is your responsibility even if the car got you there in the first place just like today.

I don't think I have seen a time clearly spelled out yet. I think it'll end up being on the order of five or ten seconds.

With level 2, you're liable, period. It's a convenience feature which I believe makes me safer overall, but all the documents are very clear that the driver is always responsible.

 

[TT97]

Sorry, call me a nit picker, but what you quote specifies FUNCTIONALITY. It does not specify LIABILITY. It is my contention that the two terms are NOT interchangeable. Any 3rd rate lawyer representing a manufacturer would shoot this full of holes very quickly. I don't think there is any way this gets through regulation for release to the public without the liability quiestion being clearly delineated and defined.

Dan

While SAE does not go into Liability (nor should they), they do define who is responsible for Dynamic Driving Task [defined as the operational (steering, braking, accelerating, monitoring the vehicle and roadway) and tactical (responding to events, determining when to change lanes, turn, use signals, etc.) aspects of the driving task]. Up to Level 3, it is the Human Driver's responsibility, Levels 4 & 5 is the System.

As far as Liability, GM is being sued now for one of their Cruise Automation Chevrolet Bolt knocking down a motorcyclist. This is one of many future lawsuits that will pave the way for determining liability for self driving cars (although it doesn't help that police determined at the scene of the accident that the motorcyclist was at fault for the accident).

 

[diplomat33]

Regarding liability, yes, I think the auto maker will be liable for L4 and L5 since it is the car that is doing the driving under those systems. I think this is a big reason why Tesla and other auto makers working on FSD, are being so cautious with releasing self-driving cars. Before releasing L4-5, they need to wait until they know the system is so good that the chances of accidents are minimal, and within the threshold of what they can handle.

 

[jrad6515]

I was on the fence with adding FSD to my recent Model S order, mainly because I think full implementation is probably a few years out. However, the manager at the local Tesla store told me that the most likely scenario is that FSD will be rolled out incrementally starting sometime in the next 6mo. to 2 yrs. Seems reasonable and if that is the case then it will be worth it to me to spend the 3K to have those partial FSD features. Also, I am 63 and I want to be able to access FSD as soon as it comes out since my driving skills will likely begin declining soon. I plan to keep my new Model S for a long time and I hope and pray that it can take over more of the driving as I age.

 

[PismoPat]

I just want the autopilot and adaptive cruise control to stop scaring me.

 

[polymathic]

As someone who got one of the first AP2 cars, I wouldn't be so keen on buying FSD ahead of time. My MX is 14 months old, with EAP, and the truth is that my AP2 cars still lacks AP1 features (displaying cars, truck, motos, and vehicles in adjacent lanes), and has not a single EAP feature yet. Needless to say, Elon overpromised and underdelivered.

 

[diplomat33]

I just want the autopilot and adaptive cruise control to stop scaring me.

Stick to highway driving and stop using AP on single lane back roads.

 

[PismoPat]

Stick to highway driving and stop using AP on single lane back roads.

Suprise braking scared the hell out of me on Interstate 5 in ACC. I changed lanes from lane 2 to lane 3 at 70 mph with a semi in lane 4 at my 1:30. Car automatically braked halfway through the lane change. Surprise braking also takes place when a car is exiting the freeway and slowing down at about the 2 o'clock position. I rarely use AP2 unless in a traffic jam on the fwy.