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I am wondering whether the new lithium 12v battery in Plaid will fit M3 or MY
- Thread starter p4594spa
- Start date
UncertainTimes
Active Member
I’m wondering how they are planning to have a functioning lithium battery in freezing temps. There must be some sort of heating element involved.
In other words, it is not going to be a drop in replacement for the 3/Y or Legacy S/X.
In other words, it is not going to be a drop in replacement for the 3/Y or Legacy S/X.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Why not?
3rd parties already have multiple different drop in Lithium replacements for the legacy batteries for Tesla that supposedly work fine in the cold.
https://www.ohmmu.com/
MPP Lightweight Lithium Battery Kit | Mountain Pass Performance
JCtx
Member
Lithium batteries for cars and motorcycles are absolute crap in winter; that's just the way they are. Unless it's a special unit, with special chemistry, I rather keep the 51R. People I know with those on motorcycles, they don't crank in about 50F. You need to turn headlights on for about 5 minues, so they 'heat' enough to be able to crank the engine. And if the headlights don't turn on unless engine is running, well, you'd be screwed.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
https://www.ohmmu.com/battery-testing
Can't speak for whatever your motorcycle friends use, but these guys have their own BMS system, don't "turn off" in cold weather, and AFAIK their batteries have been in various Teslas since at least 2015 and have worked just fine in the cold.
Can't speak for whatever your motorcycle friends use, but these guys have their own BMS system, don't "turn off" in cold weather, and AFAIK their batteries have been in various Teslas since at least 2015 and have worked just fine in the cold.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Your current Tesla is full of Li Ion batteries. They work just fine in sub freezing weather. All batteries, including lead acid loose cranking power when cold. Luckily Tesla does not need cranking power, just current flow to run lights and electronics.
Li Ion batteries do not like to be charged in below 0º temps. Just like your traction battery, they can easily be warmed up to temps where they will take a charge.
Li Ion batteries do not like to be charged in below 0º temps. Just like your traction battery, they can easily be warmed up to temps where they will take a charge.
JCtx
Member
Looks like that battery is fine even in winter... but for $400, it better be
. Good to know; thanks. And Yes, the battery pack is also Li-Ion, but it's a massive one, so you're not going to run out of juice in winter (just less range, and less power).
...says the guy from North Carolina.
You're thinking of "cold" as in the people who think cold is "It's chilly--I should wear a sweater."
To be a real across-the-board OEM replacement, it would have to deal with real cold, which would need some kind of warming to be able to recharge them.
I don't even think it's 0. Somewhere in that range of below freezing point but still above 0 will damage Li ion batteries if you try to recharge them at those temperatures. And maybe that is what you meant.
Won't a Li battery require a different charge controller from the lead-acid?
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
My point is that the charging electronics for Li-Ion batteries take temperature into concideration.
If the BMS detects cold weather it will warm the cold battery prior to charging.
Lots of RV's use this system. They charge with Solar when Boondocking. Coach batteries will often have warming blankets on them that keep them in the proper operating temps.
It is the same with the huge Li-Ion traction battery in your Tesla. If you select a route to a Supercharger, your computer will assume you are planning to charge and will begin to warm it up prior to arrival.
The Battery Management System will be tuned to keep your specific battery withing operational parameters.
This is something to be considered before replacing your Lead Acid with an aftermarket Li-Ion. It needs to be coupled with a BMS that is compatible with that specific battery. Charging parameters are quite different for different chemistries.
If the BMS detects cold weather it will warm the cold battery prior to charging.
Lots of RV's use this system. They charge with Solar when Boondocking. Coach batteries will often have warming blankets on them that keep them in the proper operating temps.
It is the same with the huge Li-Ion traction battery in your Tesla. If you select a route to a Supercharger, your computer will assume you are planning to charge and will begin to warm it up prior to arrival.
The Battery Management System will be tuned to keep your specific battery withing operational parameters.
This is something to be considered before replacing your Lead Acid with an aftermarket Li-Ion. It needs to be coupled with a BMS that is compatible with that specific battery. Charging parameters are quite different for different chemistries.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Additional details here ... Tesla's new Model S and Model X get rid of lead-acid 12v battery, move to Li-ion - Electrek
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
...says the guy from North Carolina.
You're thinking of "cold" as in the people who think cold is "It's chilly--I should wear a sweater."
To be a real across-the-board OEM replacement, it would have to deal with real cold, which would need some kind of warming to be able to recharge them.
I don't even think it's 0. Somewhere in that range of below freezing point but still above 0 will damage Li ion batteries if you try to recharge them at those temperatures. And maybe that is what you meant.
FWIW I grew up in NY and also lived in Canada. I'm familiar with actual winter.
As I noted, these have their own dedicated BMS, have been in use in Teslas going back to 2015, including up north, without issue.
They test them to well below 0 as sourced earlier in the thread and work fine.
Also, they're not Lithium ion....they're Lithium Iron Phosphate.
Rashomon
Member
All motorcycle lithium-ion batteries are LFP (lithium ferrous phosphate, commonly called lithium-iron) chemistry. They’re optimized for power, as you may need 100 to 400 amps to get through the first compression stroke during ICE engine starting. LFP is great for power and safety, but falls off in performance more in cold temperatures than NMC or other lithium-ion chemistries. But you may have noticed that the 12v battery in a Tesla doesn’t have to start an ICE? It will be optimized for a much lower maximum discharge rate than an ICE-vehicle battery. For an OEM battery, cold-temperature performance will likely set battery size. Tesla engineers will be looking for enough capacity to maintain voltage at -40 degrees so the doors unlock and the battery can open the main pack contactor. Aftermarket batteries for older vehicles will be all over the place, from very good to repurposed POS. I would rely heavily on other users’ experiences before replacing the lead-acid battery with something else.
Lithium ion is the name of the very broad category, and there are many different chemistry types within that. Lithium Iron Phosphate is yet another type of lithium ion battery. They do still use the lithium ions for charge transport within the batteries.
JCtx
Member
I guess it makes sense Li-ion 12V batteries are a lot better for Teslas than ICE cars. Nobody has said how much energy they need to put out, but apparently it's not that much to power the contactors, and other small electric motors, like doors and frunk/trunk, and the screen. If Tesla is going to put then in the new S/Xs, then something similar should be good enough for the other Teslas. However, as many have mentioned, those batteries require a different charging strategy, so I'd be very reluctant to just slap one of those things without making any software updates. Regular car chargers can't charge Li-Ion batteries; they require a special charger. Not sure what the exact differences are, but the fact you cannot combine a lead-acid charger with a Li-Ion one, they should be different enough.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
nayr14
Member
It's absolutely not worth switching out the lead acid in the Model 3 for a lithium ion battery, IMO.
I can only think of disadvantages to switching to Li-ion, besides weight, which is neglectable unless you're attempting to create a race car and have stripped all creature comforts out of the vehicle. It's the equivalent of removing your mobile charger from the trunk to save weight. Lead acid is extremely simple and reliable. If my car was outside this weekend in -6F weather we're expecting in Chicago, I don't see how an non-conditioned Li-Ion would survive.
A system engineered for a particular Li-ion chemistry that is better at lower temps makes sense. The next big jump will be 48v electronics, allowing smaller wire gauge, less weight and perhaps more efficient step-down (400v->48v vs 400v->12v).
I can only think of disadvantages to switching to Li-ion, besides weight, which is neglectable unless you're attempting to create a race car and have stripped all creature comforts out of the vehicle. It's the equivalent of removing your mobile charger from the trunk to save weight. Lead acid is extremely simple and reliable. If my car was outside this weekend in -6F weather we're expecting in Chicago, I don't see how an non-conditioned Li-Ion would survive.
A system engineered for a particular Li-ion chemistry that is better at lower temps makes sense. The next big jump will be 48v electronics, allowing smaller wire gauge, less weight and perhaps more efficient step-down (400v->48v vs 400v->12v).
Sunshine State
Automotive Enthusiast
There have been sellers on Ebay selling 12v Lithium Ion batteries to fit Tesla cars for years. Tesla service has said that a Lead Acid battery is better for the 12v application. I believe they said in extreme cold the lead acid battery performance is better. I guess they have reason to say different now.
Edit, as I read down I see other comments already posted very similar, sorry to be redundant.
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