I asked Tesla sales about the full self driving capability...

[Dstrohl]

There's been lots of discussion about the full self driving capability recently, and if it is worth it, so I figured I would ask Tesla sales... below is the cut and pasted transcript of a chat with Tesla from their customizer screen: (Note, before you read it and are disappointed, there's nothing really new or definitive in here, so it doesn't really answer many questions).

Me: So, in looking at the options, what do I actually get on delivery if I choose the full self driving option?

Tesla Sales: The capabilities of Full Self-Driving will not be enabled until jurisdictional approval is given, which will vary

Me: so... is there any estimate as to how long that is? (months? years?)

Tesla Sales: The technology's approval will vary by jurisdiction and I unfortunately cannot give an approximate timeline.

Me: OK... so is there some kind of commitment to refund the cost if after a certain time approval is not gained? (it is worrying to be paying for something that Tesla does not have control over)

Tesla Sales: Great question. There is no refund at this time for the feature if it is not given approval. However, purchasing the upgrade now would enable you to have access to the functionality at this cost.

Me: True, but if the extra cost is only 1,000, and with no timeline able to be guessed at, it seems like it is better off waiting and paying for it later (once it is approved and ready)

Tesla Sales: I understand. The $1000 increase in price after delivery is not fixed, however, and could change in the future.

Me: OK... I get it... so, is there ANYTHING extra you can tell me about this (beyond the 2 paragraphs on the web site) that would help me decide to get it now?

Tesla Sales: The information on our website is all of the information I currently have as well. Have you taken a look at the Full Self-Driving video on our Autopilot page?

Me: yup, cool, but uninformative in terms of what and when (which are the real questions here)... if you could say that the video represents what will be available in 12 months, its a no brainer. if you could say that the cost will be 10k in 24 months, it's an easier decision, but right now, with zero real info, it's a hard decision.(I get that it's not YOU, you are limited to what Corp will release.)

Tesla Sales: I'm glad you liked it. I wish i had an approximate timeline to give you, but it will vary widely by jurisdictional approval.

Me: Yeah, though it's not JUST that... (I assume at least), it seems like if even the advanced autopilot is not ready to equal ap1 before the end of the year, the self driving stuff cant be 100% ready for prime time either.and, having worked with getting jurisdictional approval for things at a state level at least, I have an idea of how hard it is going to be to get it across the country.

Tesla Sales: Yes, you are correct, as the software will be released over time to enhance to the Full-Self Driving Capability.

Me: do you at least know if it will be released regionally as approval is granted? (so, if Washington state approves it in 6 months, but Oregon doesn't, will it be turned on for WA residents and not Or?

Tesla Sales: That's a great question. Unfortunately I do not know how the regulatory approval will work and cannot accurately give you an answer.

Me: yeah, sorry, that was an unfair question for you... you mentioned that the price could go up, in your experience is that likely? and any estimate as to how much might be likely? (acknowledging that this isn't an official policy answer)

Tesla Sales: No worries! I'm unsure of a price change at this point, but I do know that the value you'll be receiving at $3000 is unparalleled by any car/technology on the market.

Me: OK... well, thanks for your time!

Tesla Sales: Thank you!​

So, all I really got from this is that their sales group IS saying that the price COULD go up for the feature in the future. They did not say it WOULD, just that it COULD. (personally, I suspect it will, and it will dramatically once it is working).

Other than that, they are just as much in the dark as everyone else.

(* and no, this didn't really help my personal decision to purchase the upgrade or not)

 

[bonnie]

Well props to the sales team for giving you the only answer they should give. Tesla cannot predict when regulatory bodies will approve things, so if they'd indicated anything else, it would have been wrong. So kudos to them for giving the right answers, even though you wanted more.

But heck, this is the forum, WE can speculate. My personal belief is that Tesla is working closely with NHSTA (it seems like the last guidance was written to mirror exactly what Tesla was doing) - so the powers-that-be probably know exactly what milestones must be achieved before approval is given - but only the folks that absolutely need to know.

Personally I'd buy it now. But I wouldn't hold Tesla to a promise of regulatory approval because they shouldn't make those promises. And yes, price will likely go up in the future.

 

[Dstrohl]

I agree, and if they had given any dates or anything I would not have believed them anyway. The real question in there that I think Might have been in their power to answer were the commitment to refund if nothing happened. I was kind of hoping that they might have something planned out as well in terms of "we will do x, y, and z even without regulatory approval. (for example, they might have said "the auto-charging option will only be available with the full self driving option".. or the "enhanced auto-pilot" will not be applicable for urban environments, so even without approval, you will at least get the urban version of enhanced auto-pilot". Mind you, I didn't EXPECT anything else, but I figured you never know until you ask.)

 

[MP3Mike]

And we know that they raised the price of AP1 by $500. So people that held off thinking they could just buy it for $3,000 later now have to pay $3,500. (So a ~17% increase.)

I can see that Tesla might raise the price if, for example, they find that they need to add a rear facing radar to get things approved. (But I would hope that they would retrofit, at no extra cost, that for people that pre-paid.)

 

[JeffK]

Are you abusing the sales people?! haha.

 

[Xminus6]

My concern is that it seems so far the regulatory approval is done state-by-state. That might not be so bad for those of us that live in California if Tesla does indeed release the features as they become legal in your jurisdiction, but it might be a terrible deal for people one state over. I mean, Tesla still can't even SELL their cars in every state in the US much less worry about passing Self-Driving Regulation. If they decide they need to get nationwide approval then it's likely a terrible deal for everyone in the US.

I'm opting to leave out FSD on my X order because there are just too many unknowns and I suspect that they won't raise the price much, if at all, during that introductory period. If within the first six months people are reporting positive results, I'll likely pull the trigger. I also suspect that Tesla will incentivize the purchase of FSD when it becomes available by waiving the additional upgrade cost. The more people using FSD before the launch of the Model 3, the better for Tesla. I think it'll be similar to the trial version of AP1 and the upgrade fee for that.

 

[soundanswer]

I'm interested in the extra cameras that are unlocked as a result of FSD. While there is very little that's tangible for us to go on, this is one physical aspect that is stated on the Design Studio.

I'm definitely thinking with opting for FSD with an April delivery. I'm certain that with greater aggregate data and the neural net advancing itself, some premises on precisely HOW the system works will evolve. While I doubt anything will be as dramatic as the shift from camera primary to radar primary (7.1 to 8.0), I bet that the Tesla Vision software will evolve to comprehend what constitutes "road safety" at a more fundamental level almost exponentially as data is aggregated.

I wouldn't be surprised at the premise of certain features for Enhanced Autopilot only vehicles are unlocked while certain FSD features are unlocked simultaneously. I.E. perhaps automatic lane change (for Enhanced Autopilot) gets unlocked in February. Possibly then also in Feb a longer auto-summon gets unlocked involving curved driveways is unlocked for FSD at the same time.

If Tesla is smart (and they are) I'm sure they will give people a reason to buy FSD long before the usage case of an autonomous LA-NYC is allowed by regulatory bodies.

 

[markwj]

Interesting conversation. I'm impressed by the answers given. Glad the sales advisor didn't overstep and over promise.

Regarding the state-by-state approval and roll-out to owners in particular states, I think it could work differently. In Hong Kong, our autopilot convenience features are already geo-fenced. We get to use autosteer, but only on specific roads of a specific type. On others, it simply won't engage. It would be relatively simple for Tesla to roll out self driving functionality to all who had paid for it, but them only enable it in specific geofenced areas.

 

[ecarfan]

I'm interested in the extra cameras that are unlocked as a result of FSD.

Since all 8 cameras are being installed now in every car Tesla makes, it is unclear to me if paying for FSDC (my preferred acronym ;-) now means that the car in some way uses all the cameras for AEB or EAP during the time period before the FSDC software is released. To put it another way, I would not assume that if you don't pay for FSDC now that means that the car only uses 4 cameras for AEB and EAP. As near as I can tell, we just don't know for sure which scenario is true. And I would not assume that anyone you talk to in a Tesla Showroom or Service Center knows for sure either. I bet you will get different opinions stated with great confidence.

 

[JeffK]

Since all 8 cameras are being installed now in every car Tesla makes, it is unclear to me if paying for FSDC (my preferred acronym ;-) now means that the car in some way uses all the cameras for AEB or EAP during the time period before the FSDC software is released. To put it another way, I would not assume that if you don't pay for FSDC now that means that the car only uses 4 cameras for AEB and EAP. As near as I can tell, we just don't know for sure which scenario is true.

I believe all cars will use all cameras regardless of what you pay to collect information and run in shadow mode.
The features you pay for will determine the features available. EAP will "use" four cameras (only needs four). (I'm not sure which four, it'd make more sense to use five cameras, one forward and all four side cameras)

I'd estimate/hope for Tesla's sake that all the cameras are used for basic safety features like AEB, etc.

 

[MP3Mike]

EAP will "use" four cameras (only needs four). (I'm not sure which four, it'd make more sense to use five cameras, one forward and all four side cameras)

EAP uses two front cameras, probably the main and long range ones, and the two rear facing side cameras.

 

[JeffK]

EAP uses two front cameras, probably the main and long range ones, and the two rear facing side cameras.

Do you have a source? I wanted to read about that.

 

[Saghost]

Do you have a source? I wanted to read about that.

Elon spelled it out in the Q&A audio, and the order page actually says it in the fine print.

Both of those just call it "redundant" front cameras - we're all guessing that's the normal and long cameras because the wide angle is very different from the other two.

 

[mal_tsla]

I think it's best to think of AP2 as a Kickstarter. Would you pay $8000 to a Kickstarter campaign that promises to make your car autonomous? If the answer is yes, order it. If no, order it on your next car after it's been shown to exist/work as promised/be legal.

 

[Roger_wilco]

To me, the only difference between current style of AP and future FSDC will be, FSDC will try to handle all the problems itself in transport between point A and B. Current version tries the same but fails due to uncapable hardware, software and other environmental factors.
Question arises here, what will be the difference between driver assist mode and FSDC mode of a Tesla, when FSDC fully approved by the govt.?
This means even if FSDC fails being accepted and enabled for your hardware, you'll will have something very close to it, within limitations of hardware you bought.

 

[MP3Mike]

Do you have a source? I wanted to read about that.

The email people got about upgrading their order from AP Convenience Features to Enhanced AP had additional information:

So now we know which 4 cameras are used by EAP:

• The main forward looking camera
• The two rear-facing side cameras
• One of the remaining forward looking cameras. (We don't know if it is the wide angle or long range camera, but it would probably be the long range one.)

 

[JeffK]

The email people got about upgrading their order from AP Convenience Features to Enhanced AP had additional information:

So now we know which 4 cameras are used by EAP:

• The main forward looking camera
• The two rear-facing side cameras
• One of the remaining forward looking cameras. (We don't know if it is the wide angle or long range camera, but it would probably be the long range one.)

Ah ok, I was going to say the order page does not use the same wording.

 

[Tam]

...Since all 8 cameras are being installed now in every car Tesla makes...

It has been Tesla's practice that you only get what you pay for.

You may have a bigger battery of 60 kWh, but if you paid for 40 kWh, you can only use up to that lower capacity.

Now, you do have 8 cameras, but how many are functional for your use depend on your willingness to pay:

1) Manual Driving: 0
2) Enhanced Autopilot: 4
3) Self Driving: 8

I thought this is very clear.

 

[MP3Mike]

Now, you do have 8 cameras, but how many are functional for your use depend on your willingness to pay:

1) Manual Driving: 0
2) Enhanced Autopilot: 4
3) Self Driving: 8

I thought this is very clear.

We know that even with manual driving at least one camera is active for safety features. i.e. AEB. It is possible that Tesla will still use all 8 cameras for safety features even if you haven't paid for any level of AP. Just that the AP driver assistance features themselves will only use the cameras that you are paying for.

 

[Tam]

We know that even with manual driving at least one camera is active for safety features. i.e. AEB. It is possible that Tesla will still use all 8 cameras for safety features even if you haven't paid for any level of AP. Just that the AP driver assistance features themselves will only use the cameras that you are paying for.

Thanks for reminding about standard AEB that still requires at least 1 camera and radar.

Correction:

1) Manual Driving: 1 camera