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Blog I Like Big Batteries And I Cannot Lie

Discussion in 'Battery Discussion' started by ChadS, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. ChadS

    ChadS Petroleum is for sissies

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    Perhaps the title is misleading, as I like small batteries too. What I really like is variety – different people have different needs, so I would like to see a wide range of battery sizes available on future cars. A car with a small battery can be lighter (which can improve handling and acceleration), more...
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  2. Tiger

    Tiger Member

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  3. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    Range is king. People who are arguing otherwise are deluding themselves. Every conversation starts with, what is the range?

    I was forced to take my ICE car during a recent trip from Dallas to Austin, because my wife and kids are not interested in stopping at SC both ways. If we had a bigger battery and 350 miles range, then that would be reduced to just once and it will charge much quicker too.
     
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  4. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    At what point then are there diminishing returns?
     
  5. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    I am guessing 350 miles range during subzero cold weather. Remember this does not mean everyone is looking to drive non-stop 350 miles. This means you can pick and choose which SC to charge and also you will have some decent range when you reach the destination for local driving.
     
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  6. Carl

    Carl Supporting Member

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    Here in Europe for example, the price difference between a S75 and a S100D is much bigger than in the US: 32,000 EUR (around 38,000 USD). With a S75 you'll have to do one more 30 minutes SuperCharging stop on any 750km trip, compared to the same trip with a S100D. So, depending on how many such road trips you'll be doing, choosing to have those 30 minutes additional stops have save you hundreds of dollars, and in fact even easily 1,000 dollars, per hour.

    Now that's quite a good hourly rate to be doing nothing (no, not working - if you do some work during those 30 minutes, you can add your own hourly rate to the 1,000 dollars you're already earning per hour :)).

    So yes, YMMV depending on how much road trips you do, but at some point the price difference for additional range may make little sense for some.
     
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  7. KarenRei

    KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei KarenRei

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    There's also the issue of local conditions. Here our maximum speed limit is 90kph (56mph), so what may be a fairly short range EV in the US is a significantly longer range EV due to the lower speed. At the same time, it takes you longer to drive that distance, so you need a break more when you get there.

    I assume when people say "range is king" they're arguing that everyone should max out range options - say, M3 LR rather than SR. But that's a 26% higher cost on the LR. Compounded at 5% over the warranty period of 8 years makes that extra money equal to 38% of your purchase price. Your decision to buy a LR you didn't need would on its own pay for nearly 2/5ths of a whole new, more advanced Model 3 at the end of your warranty period. Or to put it another way, if Tesla offered battery modernization (like they did for the Roadster), you'd have $13,4k to put toward it at that point, versus driving around an aged LR pack.

    Buy what you need, not what you don't need. Everything depreciates. Including range. A car is not an investment, it's a tool. Get the one that's right for you.
     
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  8. SSonnentag

    SSonnentag Member

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    #8 SSonnentag, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    Range is only as good as your worst case scenario. I use 60% as my calculation value. I can only depend of getting 60% of the advertised range under real world conditions. That's only 118 miles on a routine 90% charge using the SR battery, and only 112 miles after ~3 years of battery degradation.

    EDIT: Referring to the Model 3
     
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  9. mr_martin_1

    mr_martin_1 New Member

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    IMHO in near future will be cars where the battery is exchangeable. Will stay in town for near future? Shelf half of battery in garage. Going on long distance trip? Slide in and 'click' fasten that other half. Need a new battery? Ended warranty period? 'Amazon' it from a trusted vendor. At a lighter weight and more capacity ratio! I like to hear your thoughts on being out of warranty and having a 'pirate' battery. Regards from Helsinki.
     
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  10. jkn

    jkn Member

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    ChadS's blog leaves out one advantage of big battery: Battery degrades fastest when close to full or empty. It is easier to keep big battery about half full than small one.

    If battery price drops 5%/year, then after 8 years replacement battery is 33 % cheaper. So buy larger battery than you absolutely need!
     
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  11. lightningrob

    lightningrob New Member

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    Best blog title ever!
     
  12. malefactor

    malefactor New Member

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    We need the range. I'm a new model S owner that is starting to realize that 250 miles is not 250 miles, it's more like 150-180 miles in order to allow the battery charge algorithm to efficiently extend the life of the cells. My habit is now to charge to 90% on the weekend, but 60% or so during the week.

    I believe we really need a ~400 mile range car to give us more flexibility in this. A few times I've hit range anxiety because I did excessive unexpected driving in a day (near home), and it's not a good experience to have to think about affecting your route/what you do because you might get too low on charge.
     
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  13. etmax

    etmax Member

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    I'm not sure I entirely agree, I live in Australia and would have liked to have a 100kW version but the price was prohibitive, but I've lived in Germany and I would imagine for most people 40kW would be sufficient. My sister for example used to have an old Mazda and the longest trip she ever did was < 200km and she only did that about 10 times. If that was my usage I would have saved myself the difference happily. Basically horses for courses.
     
  14. skilly

    skilly Member

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    So I have a loaner MS 60 right now. It charges to 100% with about 190 miles of range est. Previously I have a P85D that would change to about 250 miles of range est at 100% - in driving the same route with the same driving characteristics over the last week I am finding consistently MORE range in to 60 left at the end of the commute than the P85D would have had with me being mindful of the pedal.

    Really, the rating on the range in the 60 with "normal" driving was almost exact over a 130 mile round trip (with different weather conditions) and the P85D was ALWAYS way off. I couldn't get that kind of accuracy in the range calculation for the P85D if I babied the drive all the way! So, while battery size is important, we start adding bigger motors (and an additional motor all together) that bigger battery doesn't yield better range.

    I have to wonder if they took the single motor platform and bolted the 100kW battery to it how close to 400 miles of range it would get. Just doing quick math it sure seems like it would be close.
     
  15. jkn

    jkn Member

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    Efficiency of MS 60 comes from smaller motor and from it being lighter.
     
  16. skilly

    skilly Member

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    I get it...its just that its pretty much on par with the bigger batteries that we pay such a premium for.
    Right...so the point being (related to this post) bigger isn't better without some caveats.

    I understand the relationship to weight but was surprised to see it so close to what is a much bigger capacity battery. When you look at the delta in cost, those extra 30 miles in capacity are knocking on the door of around $700.00 a mile!
     
  17. jelloslug

    jelloslug Active Member

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    It have an S75D and I regularly go 220+ miles on a single charge with no worries at all. I really think people think too much about the range on the screen rather than the actual percentage of the charge that is used.
     
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  18. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I would think once you hit 400 miles in cold weather, you start reaching that point. That's way more than most need but want some seem to expect even if their gas car can't go that far in the cold. Of course it takes longer to charge now than gas so need a larger range to make some happy.
     
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  19. skilly

    skilly Member

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    Actually, I think the algorithm is creating the problem.

    It seems with these more efficient versions of the car (like the S60/ MX75) the range representation is almost entirely accurate - 200 miles = 200 miles (at least quite close to this give or take a few miles). The P cars throw everything off...and Im guessing that is both the bigger motors and the added weight of the battery not being factored in the range estimator.

    When you add larger motors and capacity the returns are markedly different - the range in my P100DLX would better be described in normal driving conditions around 220 miles give or take, not 289 miles as advertised. I think the surprise is when a new user actually thinks that 290miles is your real world range...and then they watch the delta between actual consumption against the rating gap go beyond what would seem reasonable to plan around.

    So bigger is better? Not really sure thats true. Comparing an MX 75D to a P100DLX here is what I see:

    - $51K difference in price,
    - similar options list (except battery, motors, etc)
    - approximately 30 miles more of range.

    If your basing "bigger is better" on battery only, that come with a premium of about $1,700.00 per additional range of mileage. I say this being the proud new owner of a P100DLX....sigh (lol).
     
  20. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    I don't understand how you end up finding the difference in price between MX 75D and P100DLX, and somehow assigning all of that price difference to increase in range alone. That is ludicrous - pun not intended.

    A good part of the $50k price you pay extra is for the 'P' and 'L'.

    You should compare a base MX 75D ($79.5k) with base MX 100D ($96k). I believe the price difference is more like $16.5K for an additional range increase 58 miles - or around $275 per mile for the additional range.

    Worth every penny.

    Similarly for Model S, the price difference between base MS 75D ($74.5K) and MS 100D ($94k) is around $19.5K, for an increase in range of 75 miles - or around $260 per mile for the additional range.

    Worth every penny.
     
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