Do it correctly or don't do it at all. Your and your neighbours safety is not worth the risk.
I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what?
- Thread starter andy92782
- Start date
First, if I did as you suggest the city inspector would never sign off on it. Or should I hack it together and skip the whole permit thing? Second, you're implying there's a non-zero risk that my old, loaded up panel will go up in flames. Perhaps your comment was made tongue-in-cheek but seriously? It's a condo. I share common walls with other homeowners. For the safety of all of us - and to cover my rear in terms of liability - the job will either get done right or it won't get done at all.
Yes. Do it correctly, according to NEC code to be safe. Put in a 30a breaker.
Just get a variance to the stupid local code that allows a L2 circuit on an overloaded 100a panel but not on a perfectly fine 70a panel. Get your permit.
Just get a variance to the stupid local code that allows a L2 circuit on an overloaded 100a panel but not on a perfectly fine 70a panel. Get your permit.
eprosenx
Active Member
FYI, I have done a little more research on the Challenger panels. While I still don't have definitive information, it sounds like there are various series of Challenger panels based on different designs. It would seem that the concerns are with the panels based on the Federal Pacific design, but later panels were based on a design that is compatible with what are now Eaton BR breakers. Anecdotal information may indicate to me that these BR based designs (which is what I think the OP has) are not the ones with the fire risk.
But take this with a grain of salt. It is just information I have found online. It sounds like there is a lot of confusion out there.
Challenger panel insurance denials
I just wanted to call out that it is possible that both the main service entrance gear (HOA owned presumably) and the panel in the OP's unit may be completely fine (not a known hazard). More research may be needed.
If these panels and breakers are not a known hazard then it may not make financial sense to push for replacing them at this time. Also, I could see logic around replacing breakers (very quick and easy to do and often times inexpensive) but leaving the same panel(s) in place. Fresh modern breakers may provide some level of comfort without the cost of panel replacement.
But take this with a grain of salt. It is just information I have found online. It sounds like there is a lot of confusion out there.
Challenger panel insurance denials
I just wanted to call out that it is possible that both the main service entrance gear (HOA owned presumably) and the panel in the OP's unit may be completely fine (not a known hazard). More research may be needed.
If these panels and breakers are not a known hazard then it may not make financial sense to push for replacing them at this time. Also, I could see logic around replacing breakers (very quick and easy to do and often times inexpensive) but leaving the same panel(s) in place. Fresh modern breakers may provide some level of comfort without the cost of panel replacement.
I agree with this sentiment. Never suggested that OP go rogue on the panel himself.
I don't suggest you do any of the work yourself. It needs to get permitted and inspected. I'm not sure whether your old panel is safe or not, but I assume an electrician or the inspector can tell you.
Neither of the two electricians that have seen the Challenger panels at my property made any mention of them being risky.
The HOA I live in is pretty big.. There are about 225 total condos spread across maybe ~60 different buildings. Most buildings have four condos but some have two or three. Not once has anything regarding the electric infrastructure ever come up at a board meeting, and I've lived here 20 years now. If the Challenger panels were truly defective then I'm pretty sure we'd know by now and the HOA would have had to assess us to replace everything.
This coming week should be interesting. I'm going to push for the DCC installation. At this point it's just a matter of getting the electrician (who has familiarity with the DCC) to get the city inspector (who doesn't have familiarity) to approve the plans. I don't think it's an insurmountable task. Do I think the DCC is absolutely necessary to add a 240V/30A breaker to my panel? Probably not, but it would ensure I stay within the limits of the original infrastructure and - as always - it minimizes my interaction with the HOA. Have I mentioned in this thread yet just how difficult my HOA is to deal with?
tga
Supporting Member
I wonder if using some 90C rated Polaris connectors to splice a foot or two of 2GA Cu THHN to the ends of the wires would get around the temp rating issue?
eprosenx
Active Member
That is a great question. Do they make 90c rated Polaris connectors?
Sounds feasible.
Though I think it is frowned on to change gauge mid circuit as much as possible. If someone later comes along and sees 2AWG on both ends without inspecting the entire circuit path (presumably the Polaris connectors may need to be in separate junction boxes) then it would be easy to assume the entire wire span was 2AWG.
There may even be code prohibiting this? I don’t know.
If I had sufficient size conduit available I would spend the money on new larger gauge wire in a heartbeat over trying to get too creative with the existing wire.
tga
Supporting Member
No, it's "No HOA, happy life"Isn’t there a saying?
Happy HOA, happy life
Been there, done that. Never again.
tga
Supporting Member
These appear to be 90C rated. I don't know about the rest of your questions.
https://polarisconnectors.com/pdfs/NSi/IT_series.pdf
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
Your pretty sharp electrician should have some other options for you. I understand that a tandem breaker or transfer switch is not an ideal solution but it definitely is a solution to this problem.
I haven't looked into the DCC gear but there are other manufacturers out there that make specific equipment designed to monitor panel load and shed loads like your car charger if the overall current level gets too high. These devices have existed for years and while they are not cheap, they do solve your problem.
For example, you install a new "smart" panel and you plug everything into it. It will have the capability of dumping the car charger circuit if the overall panel load gets above say, 20 amps. So in the rare instance where your AC is starting and drawing a lot of current at the same time your car is charging and you have everything else in the house turned on it will dump the car charger circuit and bring it back online when it is safe to do so.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
I just wanted to comment on this earlier post because I was reviewing this thread and it has been gnawing at me a bit.
This gets proposed all the time as a solution to a potentially overloaded panel. Basically just downsize some stuff and then over-subscribe the panel since you know the panel is oversubscribed and you know that if you put a bunch of incandescent bulbs in that you could be overloaded.
The NEC is designed specifically to avoid this kind of boneheaded behavior. See, you won't be the last person who is hooking things up to those circuits and the code is designed to protect not only you but the next homeowner so if they use the circuits that are installed to their ratings they don't start a fire and burn their entire neighborhood to the ground.
At this point it's one step at a time. If my city rejects the DCC, we'll re-evaluate. One thing the electrician mentioned to me on the phone: My city is the *only* one in Orange County which won't approve a transfer switch. Yes, I know what you're thinking... Lucky me.
BTW, I recognize your username from "The 'fest"... I go by "AK" over there. Small world.
Update from OP: After two weeks of waffling, the City of Tustin finally approved the plans for my DCC installation. Hallelujah! Now I need to see about ordering a Tesla Wall connector... Anyone know how long it takes Tesla to ship wall connectors after 2 referrals? I just got my second!
I'm still waiting on one of mine from June, so...good luck. I've checked with them, and they said they are still horribly backed up on those and working their way through from much earlier in the year.
Wow.. Well, in Elon's defense he's fairly preoccupied with getting cars built and shipped. I doubt he has much time to sit there with a Sharpie to autograph a bunch of wall chargers. Looks like I'll have to buy one along with everyone else and then try to sell the gifted one later...
It's laser etched into the plastic; not written on. Elon Musk has nothing to do with it personally. I have no idea why it is taking so long to get these out. It's just a different front plastic cover piece, so I thought they would have placed some batch orders for those. I did get my first one back on September 10th, and I sold it to one of the people who bought on my referral, but I'm waiting for the second one to use myself. I've been on a 14-50 outlet for 4 and a half years, but with getting a free wall connector, I figured it would be good to go ahead and put on there.
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