Feed the grid with solar power all day and charge up the cars at night. Cheapest battery pack ever, I love it! 
If you haven't installed a PV system yet, look into it.
If you haven't installed a PV system yet, look into it.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
I love using the grid as a battery! :)
- Thread starter SSonnentag
- Start date
Yeah, it feels like I’m cheating.
I keep assuming that this model won’t last forever.
I keep assuming that this model won’t last forever.
It will have to change at some point as we aren't supporting the infrastructure, but until then it sure is fun while it lasts!
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
I've had this discussion with the head of my local electrical co-op. They have been gradually raising the basic service charge that covers infrastructure and it is now up to $20/month. That is most, but not yet all, of the cost of maintaining the grid and office support, divided by the 13,000 individual meters. When the monthly service charge gets to $25 it will be pretty close to breakeven here. This is in a co-op with a huge, lightly populated, territory comprising some of the most rugged terrain in the country.It will have to change at some point as we aren't supporting the infrastructure, but until then it sure is fun while it lasts!
Once the basic service charge gets to breakeven, I don't think that grid-tied solar customers need to worry about being subsidized by other ratepayers.
I try to charge my car at midday to use my solar, and that of some of my neighbors, directly. If I have to charge at night on coal it bugs me!
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
It's SIGNIFICANTLY more complicated that that. I wish commission staff would do their jobs and stop this service fee hiking nonsense. There needs to be a go/no-go test for higher utility fees 'Does this modify behavior to make the grid more efficient?' If the answer is 'no' the increase should be rejected. The best indicator of what share someone should pay is their percentage contribution to coincident peak. If that peak typically occurs at 3pm-7pm then rates need to be modified to discourage grid use during that period.
The somewhat paradoxic scenario for Solar PV owners especially those in the mid-west is that it's often cleaner to use energy at night than during the day. Since grid power during the day is more often coal or gas and grid power at night usually has a higher percentage of wind. Wind curtailment almost always occurs in the early morning hours. So exporting 10kWh during the day then importing 10kWh at night can often be cleaner than self-consuming 10kWh.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
I disagree. With my net metering I use my co-op's grid as my battery and never pay for electricity. Why should I not be expected to contribute to the upkeep of the grid and back-office of the co-op? Am I better than and deserving of subsidy by other ratepayers because I have solar? I don't buy it.
Since the co-op is member-owned and our membership strongly supports renewables and efficiency, unlike the vast majority of co-ops in our four state region, we also have numerous rebates for renewables, LED lighting, efficient appliances and similar things. We even have a rebate for the purchase of electric cars (presumably considered more efficient than fossil fuel cars). We also have what was, at the time of construction, the largest community-owned solar array in the country. If I don't like the direction of the co-op I can vote for a board member more to my liking or run for the board myself.
^ Our community solar array.
Last edited:
mspohr
Well-Known Member
You do need to consider the fact that your solar production contributes to grid stability by providing a distributed source of power. This means that your solar can contribute to shaving peaks making the grid more stable and reducing the need to build increased grid capacity.
As more distributed generation is built, the load for the grid becomes much less. If you then add distributed batteries to the mix, it becomes an even better situation for the utility. (See Green Mountain Utility: Whoa! Heatwave Savings for All GMP Customers Could Reach $500,000 Thanks to Innovation and Storage - Green Mountain Power )
Your solar production is actually a good resource for the utility company and you should get credit for that.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
My point wasn't that people with solar should get a free ride indefinitely. My point is that fees should be structured to encourage demand response and storage.
If they simply raise the connection fee and keep net metering... what incentive is there for demand response and storage?
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
In my view, I do get credit for my solar production because my co-op allows me to bank solar credit almost indefinitely (up to a maximum of 10,000 kWh) for use on cloudy days and in winter when my usage increases and my production decreases. To me that is a huge benefit of the net metering setup here. A subsidy, if you will.
It wasn't always thus — at one time we had to reconcile production — at the very low wholesale electricity cost — once a year in June, just about the worst time for it, from the net metering customer's point of view in this climate. We lobbied to have it moved to a better time of the year: March. A few months later the board ended reconciliation entirely, save for the generous 10,000 kWh limit. To me, paying a fair share for the infrastructure we all use is a side issue.
I realize that there are commercial utilities who don't treat net metering customers fairly and, indeed, are trying to stamp them out. That strikes me as a separate issue from a general service charge for infrastructure support, assuming that it is fairly distributed based on the size of the utility.
@SSonnentag: Is this a rooftop solar system? Do you have any spare roof space you'd be able to use to generate even more power to export to the grid if that would get you compensated appropriately? Are you using 20% efficient panels, or something in the ballpark of 12% where in principle if you wanted more power from the space used by your panels you'd be able to upgrade to more efficient panels?
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
This statement bears some scrutiny. If you export PV it is likely going to a neighbor. Without your contribution the electricity is coming from the wholesaler. Those are not equivalent grid uses; and if I am thinking about this correctly, the PV export is always less wear and tear on the utility grid than from the wholesaler.
The other issue with raising monthly costs as PV penetration grows is the tendency to cover reduced revenues this way when the better answer (at least in part) is to put the utility on a diet.
Last edited:
To my way of thinking, the way to put a utility on a diet is to avoid further capital expenditure, which means no new transmission capacity. Distributed generation and demand management are the best ways to manage the grid within your existing infrastructure. Well, unless you were talking specifically about the fat-cat executives at the utility.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Sort of. I was thinking of the fixed costs that are not infrastructure related.
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
No fat-cat executives at our tiny electrical co-op. I know the general manager and he is the antithesis of that appellation.
Years ago, before he attained his current position, he told me that renewables were changing the traditional electricity distribution model and the co-op would look very different in twenty to thirty years. He was already thinking how they would have to adapt.
It will be interesting to see how the big commercial utilities adapt. As battery prices fall more customers will be able to go off-grid, leaving fewer customers to support the current infrastructure. Restricting the ability to net-meter risks forcing customers to abandon the grid entirely. I view this as a foolish long term strategy but it may be that utility execs are thinking short term about their own careers -- "I'll be retired by then, so the .change doesn't matter."
Years ago, before he attained his current position, he told me that renewables were changing the traditional electricity distribution model and the co-op would look very different in twenty to thirty years. He was already thinking how they would have to adapt.
It will be interesting to see how the big commercial utilities adapt. As battery prices fall more customers will be able to go off-grid, leaving fewer customers to support the current infrastructure. Restricting the ability to net-meter risks forcing customers to abandon the grid entirely. I view this as a foolish long term strategy but it may be that utility execs are thinking short term about their own careers -- "I'll be retired by then, so the .change doesn't matter."
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
There's a super-wide chasm between ending net metering and it being cheaper to just go off-grid... Also entirely possible to keep net metering AND for it to be cheaper to go off-grid. Which is why I don't like a myopic view of net metering. My utility was an example of having net metering AND it nearly being cheaper to be off-grid. Xcel 'proudly' touted their support for net metering and levied a charge of $0.037/kWh requesting an increase to $0.041/kWh produced. Sure, I got full retail credit for every kWh exported and imported. I also had to pay $0.037/kWh even if it NEVER saw the grid! Eliminating net metering AND the production fee would have left me much better off. To avoid losing value by exporting energy at less than retail I would have used my battery bank to increase my self-consumption... still much cheaper than going off-grid since my batteries are no where near big enough to support that.
Net Metering is fine <10% penetration. But at some point we need to encourage IMPORTS during the day and EXPORTS and night... how would net metering accomplish that? At some point we need storage and demand response... how does net metering accomplish that?
NET METERING; Four reasons "Net-Metering" is no longer our friend...
Last edited:
It's a 10-year-old rooftop system. We can't go any larger as the utility provider caps us at 120% or 125% of our calculated use. I don't know the efficiency rating of the panels themselves, but they're Canadian Solar panels.
Similar threads
