Good point! I've never heard it put this way "Only at the tailpipe", but it fits perfectly. It is easy to forget this when there is no tailpipe.
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I traded in my Model S for a Prius Prime
- Thread starter voltaren
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Correct. My point was that a PHEV becomes an HEV once the EV portion of the battery is depleted. It never becomes a traditional ICE-only vehicle, and we would never want it to.
Having the battery to store and reuse excess energy provides about 10-15 MPG improvement in fuel economy and lower tailpipe emissions, so it is better than a traditional ICE in this regard.
10-15 MPG.?!? That would depend greatly on the use of course. On the highway, almost zero. In fact, on a flat constant speed highway, the weight of the hybrid system is a burden and it uses more if you just look at the regen part of things. The Prius also does well from LRR tires, good aero, Atkinson cycle etc. Don't attribute all benefits to the hybrid portion - that is a mistake.
That would be of course missing much of the benefit of a hybrid. But saying 10-15 MPG from regen alone is complete nonsense except in a perfect situation of no breaking and city use.
The P part of a PHEV is a burden if you don't use it. Bigger battery = production emissions and weight. Also the 120V charging (or maybe more depending on the vehicle) has a cost, weight and production emissions (even if small).
Analysis from PHEV vs EV are difficult. Your grid matters a lot as well as battery size. The best choice is a very efficient small battery EV. Most of these early analyses took place with S85s. A not efficient, big battery, big car and compared to a Volt - so sure they are really close (in terms of LC emissions).
That would be of course missing much of the benefit of a hybrid. But saying 10-15 MPG from regen alone is complete nonsense except in a perfect situation of no breaking and city use.
The P part of a PHEV is a burden if you don't use it. Bigger battery = production emissions and weight. Also the 120V charging (or maybe more depending on the vehicle) has a cost, weight and production emissions (even if small).
Analysis from PHEV vs EV are difficult. Your grid matters a lot as well as battery size. The best choice is a very efficient small battery EV. Most of these early analyses took place with S85s. A not efficient, big battery, big car and compared to a Volt - so sure they are really close (in terms of LC emissions).
Absolutely. I am speaking from my own experience. In my daily commute, which is 50 miles each way, I tend to get about 50-55 MPG in both my Gen 3 Prius (HEV) when it was new, and my Prius Prime (PHEV) when the EV battery is depleted, and in my experience the better high MPG ICE cars get around 40 MPH over similar routes. Hence the 10-15 MPG claim. Yes, on a purely highway route with no elevation change and no braking the hybrid ability would be useless and in fact just extra weight.
Yes, the improvement in MPG can be attributed to lower drag and lower rolling resistance as well. That is a very good point, thanks. But I noticed that the MPG has been dropping as the car ages and I suspect this is due to the battery loosing capacity (NiMH chemistry). Of course it could also be due to the ICE becoming worn out. My old Gen 3 has 240K on it now and barely achieves 40 MPG. So no better than an ICE car. So again it seemed to me that losing the hybrid ability was dropping my MPG by 10-15 MPG.
That is my thought process anyhow. It may not be entirely correct, but I do not think it is "complete nonsense" either. Maybe just partial nonsense?
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ucmndd
Well-Known Member
You’re obviously a lost cause, but other people reading seem more susceptible to reason, so I’ll take that as a win.
TigerNinety
Member
Greetings,
These are always challenging conversations to jump in on. But, I've had enough of a positive experience that it's probably worth adding to balance the negative.
Across just under 10K miles and 9.5 months on a used (from Tesla) 2016.5 S75D starting at about 18K miles, I've had two "malfunction" service visits, two upgrade visits (HW3 and MCU2), and one uncorking visit. Really, only the last of these was "dumb," as in it should never have been necessary (Tesla sold it to me as uncorked when it wasn't). Everything but MCU2 was covered under warranty, and a fix for a disconnected hazard button was addressed by mobile service in under 10 minutes. Time will tell, but on balance, I've been happy with the service I've had (even if I wish I hadn't had to have the two "malfunction" visits). The mere fact of mobile service is pretty remarkable. If the car had CarPlay, I'd call it near perfect.
I do despise the inconsistency, and I wish that none of us had to fear the "bad" side of Tesla service or quality. Here's to hoping that competition will make it better!
Todd
PS. I'm sympathetic with buying less expensive EVs or plug-in hybrids, and there will be advantages (see CarPlay, above). But, I'd argue that these are still apples to oranges comparisons in many ways; Ferraris have warts, but they're still Ferraris.
These are always challenging conversations to jump in on. But, I've had enough of a positive experience that it's probably worth adding to balance the negative.
Across just under 10K miles and 9.5 months on a used (from Tesla) 2016.5 S75D starting at about 18K miles, I've had two "malfunction" service visits, two upgrade visits (HW3 and MCU2), and one uncorking visit. Really, only the last of these was "dumb," as in it should never have been necessary (Tesla sold it to me as uncorked when it wasn't). Everything but MCU2 was covered under warranty, and a fix for a disconnected hazard button was addressed by mobile service in under 10 minutes. Time will tell, but on balance, I've been happy with the service I've had (even if I wish I hadn't had to have the two "malfunction" visits). The mere fact of mobile service is pretty remarkable. If the car had CarPlay, I'd call it near perfect.
I do despise the inconsistency, and I wish that none of us had to fear the "bad" side of Tesla service or quality. Here's to hoping that competition will make it better!
Todd
PS. I'm sympathetic with buying less expensive EVs or plug-in hybrids, and there will be advantages (see CarPlay, above). But, I'd argue that these are still apples to oranges comparisons in many ways; Ferraris have warts, but they're still Ferraris.
ADEEL421
Member
so I upgraded from a 2013 Prius to a MS in aug of 2019...so far LOVING the experience however i cant say anything bad about prius...def the most ugly looking car I have ever owned but definitely the most reliable car i have ever owned.
saying they dont depreciate is not right. i lost half of its value in few years which is about the same as tesla depreciation. on the other side i never took it to the dealership which was a plus.
the ride sucked, the pickup sucked, drove like a golfcart but SAVED me alot of $$ on gas.
there are pros and cons.
yes Tesla does require maintenance but its not that bad. i personally would trade the prius pros for tesla cons anytime. i love how tesla drive, the pickup, the technology, the shape, features, the self driving etc...
yes i dont think i will own a tesla without warrenty though. a prius yes i would own without a warrenty hands down.
however these two cars are so different that there is no comparison. its like comparing apples to oranges.
however I must say Tesla MS is the best car i have owned so far. i look forward to driving it.
saying they dont depreciate is not right. i lost half of its value in few years which is about the same as tesla depreciation. on the other side i never took it to the dealership which was a plus.
the ride sucked, the pickup sucked, drove like a golfcart but SAVED me alot of $$ on gas.
there are pros and cons.
yes Tesla does require maintenance but its not that bad. i personally would trade the prius pros for tesla cons anytime. i love how tesla drive, the pickup, the technology, the shape, features, the self driving etc...
yes i dont think i will own a tesla without warrenty though. a prius yes i would own without a warrenty hands down.
however these two cars are so different that there is no comparison. its like comparing apples to oranges.
however I must say Tesla MS is the best car i have owned so far. i look forward to driving it.
My experience also has been pretty good and also commend the mobile service, I would love to know what % of owners have had poor experiences overall, there is always negative bias generally I think on the forums, would be good to know overall (I don't put much stock in the JD Powers type surveys but perhaps there is already other visibility of this) and more importantly how they'll compare to the legacy automakers as they start to add to the overall populous...
You have been fortunate.
Consumer Reports lists Tesla as among the least reliable brands, and has no axe to grind. Their subscribers supply the data and report the problems. The ratings vary by year and model. Certain years of Models S, X and Y are on CR's lists of the "Worst Used Cars." As for new cars, CR rates the Model S and X as "below average" for expected reliability, rates Model 3 as "average," and rates Model Y as "much worse than average". They also report that consumer satisfaction is extremely high for all the Tesla models, despite the reported problems. (These are ratings from their annual auto issue, April 2021, just out. )
The magazine ran an article a month or so ago reporting on the phenomenon that two brands stood out for fierce loyalty and consistently high satisfaction scores, despite poor reliability records and consistent complaints about certain problems -- Jeep Wrangler and Tesla. It was an interesting combination!
Sold my Model 3 this week and bought a 2016 Subaru Outback. Had a MS P85 from 2013-2016, a MS 90D from 2016-2019, and a M3 LR AWD from 2019-2021. Even though I had some service visits during my ownership of the P85, this is the car I was most satisfied with. The 90D had click-clack sounds from the suspension that Tesla said was within specs, however it ruined my experience with the car. The M3 was a true disaster. Constant high resonance noise in the cabin, even at speeds as low as 20 km/h. Extremly bad build quality, and the most unpractical car I have ever owned (my fault). According to Tesla everything was within spec. Tesla has the privilege that people by the cars no matter how bad the quality and service is, so no need for them to improve. It was a true heaven to drive the Outback coming from the M3. The Outback has good driving comfort, is much less noisy, has superior build quality, is much more practical and I can turn on the wipers without having to use the touchscreen. Back in 2014 I thought Tesla would improve their quality and fit and finish. Now I know better. And after they got involved in environmentally harmful crypto, it was an easy decision to leave Tesla.
TigerNinety
Member
Update after a week of driving the Prius Prime: fantastic car, and it has grown on me much more. I get 28-33 miles on full charge; after that, hybrid mode gets me 70+mpg. For comparison, all other Priuses I’ve driven get 45-55mpg. More comfortable than my MS and drives like a small Lexus. Cheaper to operate and better for the environment than the MS. I have no regrets.
Rivian has the advantage of no actual vehicles in owners' hands for people to report shortcomings. You're comparing real cars with an image put out there by the company. It's possible that Rivians and the company's service will be great, but we don't know that.
This is making me nervous since I am just getting ready to sell my new 2021 Prius Prime Limited to buy a MY. I do love the Prime, just wish it ran longer in EV mode. Maybe I should hold on to it a while longer.
Everybody makes their decisions based on the needs budget usage etc. It would be boring if we all drove the same cars. Anyway I think many people will be able to get by with an EV and a PHEV as a two car household. I wanted to get an EV but I needed a car that can drive for a ski weekend in New England. That means a 3 to 5 hour ride at night in cold weather. No EV has the range in cold weather to get you there and there are no places to plug in at the ski areas. A PHEV is the best you can do right now. If I could get by with a EV I would as I prefer the smooth silent torque of full electric drive. That said the Prius Prime PHEV has been a great little car which I am over 500 miles per gallon lifetime right now due to Covid restrictions. If everyone uses less gas it all helps the environment.
BigNick
Infamous Fat Sweaty Guy
Honda claims 47 miles of all-electric range in the Clarity, if you can get past the styling (not that the Prius Prime is a looker, either.)
Notes on EV-ness:
- Prime will run engine for heat below 15*F
- Prime may run engine if using defog
But the Prime is definitely efficient. I know @SageBrush owns/owned one.
For those who don't need lots of range or fast charging and want an efficient BEV, an Ioniq EV could be an alternative.
For those who want a PHEV with more EV range, they might consider a used Volt. It is canceled, of course, so caveats on support, and replacement battery prices went up.
Particularly avoid 2013s (Gen 1 mid-cycle refresh) and 2016s (Gen 2 year 1).
The 2019 Volt finally delivered better on the EREV concept: if you avoid max defog it optionally won't run the engine until -13F, and they had a 7.2kW charger option. Nearly bought a 2019. Might in 2023 if there isn't a really good alternative PHEV.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yep, I owned the Prime for a year while waiting for my Model 3.
Truly remarkable efficiency.
Great PHEVs like the Prime are strange beasts. Depending on one's priorities it is either an outstanding car or a Meh. I loved the practicality, reliability, value and efficiency, but I became an ICE hater and I really did not like the look from the back. It evoked in me a visceral reaction that reminded me of the vitriol people would spill on the Aztec. And no one will pick the Prime for its driving dynamics.
If used as intended (full charge before every drive), it is a fine environmental choice and outstanding value.
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