I wanted to avoid posting this - windshield issue

[CmdrThor]

I can just barely see the ghosting at night, but it doesn't bother me at all. I didn't notice for quite a while until people were talking about it. Anyways, while you are waiting for a fix, maybe you should pick up a pair of these night polarized driving glasses? Any ghosting I can see in the early morning is completely eliminated by my polarized sunglasses.

https://amzn.com/B00NAN1GEI

 

[electricity]

I can just barely see the ghosting at night, but it doesn't bother me at all. I didn't notice for quite a while until people were talking about it. Anyways, while you are waiting for a fix, maybe you should pick up a pair of these night polarized driving glasses? Any ghosting I can see in the early morning is completely eliminated by my polarized sunglasses.

Amazon.com: Duco? Night-vision Glasses Anti-glare Driving Eyewear Polarized Glasses 6806 (Black, Yellow): Clothing

Hey thanks! I was asking around about something like this as I use my sunglasses during the day and its perfect. Will check this out thank u!

 

[wdolson]

I saw this on a Jeep Compass the other day so no, its not exclusive to this glass. I understand it may be a difficult glass yo make, but the ghosting is un- acceptable and I highly HIGHLY doubt Elon approved the issue and went ahead with the design. This is a supplier/factory problem and there has to be a answer from them , transmited to us. "We havent found a fix" is not acceptable. We are having the glass made somewhere else wait for us, is a answer. Even if it means we have to wait a year.

I doubt it showed up in the pre-production test cars. Those were hand made with hand made parts. Since some people are seeing the ghosting and some aren't, it sounds like a manufacturing issue. Some things can be done OK in small batches, but will become a problem if you attempt to mass produce them.

I believe the big windshield also came along very late in the design. At the first deliveries people were surprised by the large windshield. Nobody probably gave it much thought that it was going to be a problem because it isn't a common problem with car windshields, though people here have seen it in other brands of cars.

Has this ghosting problem shown up in the MS series? On my test drive, the glass just above the wipers had a wave distortion along the entire width. The distortion was about 1-2 inches. Do all S's have this? is this the X's issue? Is this just a reflection off of window tint? Somebody explain what a ghost is (and is not)

My new S has some distortion at the bottom of the windshield. It's about the bottom 1/2 to 1 inch, it's below the wipers. I've only driven once at night (we've had the longest days of the year around here since I got it), but there were no windshield issues at night.

 

[wdolson]

Tesla wasn't an auto expert and they have been given huge slack because of that... Have you ever owned a Roadster? I have and can tell you, they are AWESOME! BUT... Full of issues that a mature automaker just wouldn't have (go to Roadster forums and explore if you need examples)... I'm now driving a Model S and although I, again, love it and think it is awesome, but go sit in a Mercedes S class sedan at a Mercedes showroom... The attention to details is exquisite and demonstrable of what a $70-150K sedan looks like from a mature automaker...

The Model S would be about a $50K car if made by a mainstream auto maker as an ICE. First off, the batteries are expensive, secondly the volume of S and X production is much lower than any mainstream auto maker. Tesla has kind of moved into it's own niche as far as volume is concerned. There are specialty car makers who only make a handful to maybe 1000 cars a year that are mostly only sold to collectors and then there are mass production car makers who make millions, but Tesla is alone (in western markets at least) in making about 80,000 a year. For comparison, in the US market, the next biggest car maker (the lowest production mass producer) is Subaru who makes about 1 million cars a year.

By making a middling volume of cars, Tesla pays a higher price for parts. Say there is some kind of fastener that is used in 1000 places on a car. Mercedes builds millions of cars a year and uses billions of those fasteners across all their cars. They might pay 1/2 cent a piece for them. Tesla uses a similar fastener and uses 1000 per car, but they have only built 50K cars a year, so they only use about 50 million of them, so they pay 3 cent a piece for them. For the Merc, they only spent $5 on fasteners per car, but Tesla paid $30. That's a small thing (and this is just a hypothetical), but all the parts Tesla buys cost them more, so their wholesale cost for parts is higher than their competition.

The Gigafactory will give them a big advantage in the most important part for an electric car: the batteries. If the Model 3 sparks big consumer demand for EVs, Tesla will be in a far stronger position than they are now and everyone else will be behind the 8 ball. Tesla will be able to negotiate better parts prices between higher volumes and proven demand for their cars when the competition's is falling.

Finally Tesla also has very high profit margins per car compared to the rest of the industry, plus $2K per car goes to build out and maintain the supercharger network. That's an expense and benefit you don't get with any ICE. Imagine Mercedes offering free gas on road trips for the life of the car?

So the money, instead of going into creature comforts goes into other things. The S and X interior is posh compared to a mainstream family car like a Camry, Fusion, or Accord. It even holds up against something like Buick. For those of us coming from a car costing less than $60K (my last car cost $22K new), it's posh enough or possibly the poshest car we've ever owned. For those moving sideways from a car that costs the same, it's rather plain.

 

[Macgaver]

This 3-4 lights reflexion problem is also impacting my X, for Me and my Wife. Seem to disappear if we lower our head and look very low (but our seat is already at minimum).

I haven't talked to Tesla about it yet since we do not drive at night so often, but I expect them to find a solution in a near future and let me know of a future fix coming (could be in one year, but would like them proactive on it).

I was aware of the issue before getting my X, but my wife was not aware. After the first drive at night, she asked me if I was also seeing triple lights driving ...

 

[srini]

Oh please shut up nobody is calling the nhtsa, Tesla will solve this im just frustrated on the communication.

Here is what the GM owner manual says about reporting to NHTSA. What is there in your Model X owner manual? Do you feel the ghosting has increased the chance of an accident, or is it just an annoyance?

Reporting Safety Defects
Reporting Safety Defects to the United States Government
If you believe that your vehicle has a defect which could cause a crash or could cause injury or death, you should immediately inform the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) in addition to notifying General Motors.
If NHTSA receives similar complaints, it may open an investigation, and if it finds that a safety defect exists in a group of vehicles, it may order a recall and remedy campaign. However, NHTSA cannot become involved in individual problems between you, your dealer, or General Motors. To contact NHTSA, you may call the Vehicle Safety Hotline toll-free at 1-888-327-4236 (TTY: 1-800-424-9153); go to http://www.safercar.gov; or write to:
Administrator, NHTSA
1200 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20590
You can also obtain other information about motor vehicle safety from Home | Safercar -- National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA).

Reporting Safety Defects to the Canadian Government
If you live in Canada, and you believe that the vehicle has a safety defect, notify Transport Canada immediately, and notify General Motors of Canada Limited. Call Transport Canada at
1-800-333-0510 or write to:
Transport Canada
Road Safety Branch
80 rue Noel
Gatineau, QC J8Z 0A1

Reporting Safety Defects to General Motors
In addition to notifying NHTSA (or Transport Canada) in a situation like this, notify General Motors. Call 1-800-222-1020, or write: ..

 

[electricity]

The Model S would be about a $50K car if made by a mainstream auto maker as an ICE. First off, the batteries are expensive, secondly the volume of S and X production is much lower than any mainstream auto maker. Tesla has kind of moved into it's own niche as far as volume is concerned. There are specialty car makers who only make a handful to maybe 1000 cars a year that are mostly only sold to collectors and then there are mass production car makers who make millions, but Tesla is alone (in western markets at least) in making about 80,000 a year. For comparison, in the US market, the next biggest car maker (the lowest production mass producer) is Subaru who makes about 1 million cars a year.

By making a middling volume of cars, Tesla pays a higher price for parts. Say there is some kind of fastener that is used in 1000 places on a car. Mercedes builds millions of cars a year and uses billions of those fasteners across all their cars. They might pay 1/2 cent a piece for them. Tesla uses a similar fastener and uses 1000 per car, but they have only built 50K cars a year, so they only use about 50 million of them, so they pay 3 cent a piece for them. For the Merc, they only spent $5 on fasteners per car, but Tesla paid $30. That's a small thing (and this is just a hypothetical), but all the parts Tesla buys cost them more, so their wholesale cost for parts is higher than their competition.

Here is what the GM owner manual says about reporting to NHTSA. What is there in your Model X owner manual? Do you feel the ghosting has increased the chance of an accident, or is it just an annoyance?

GM does not care about the cars they sell, thats why they sell crap. Tesla does care so I trust they will fix this because its the right thing to do without government intervention.

 

[wdolson]

GM does not care about the cars they sell, thats why they sell crap. Tesla does care so I trust they will fix this because its the right thing to do without government intervention.

GM is a large company with many people contributing to the whole. The company has been largely run by bean counters the last few decades and all they care about is how to squeeze out the maximum profit in the shortest amount of time. The ignition switch problem became such a problem because some bean counter decided it was economically better for the company to bury the problem than fix it.

Tesla is a young, dynamic company run by engineers. They know they need to make money to stay in business and further their long term goals, but making money is secondary towards making the best product possible. Back when GM was run by engineers, the corporate culture was probably similar, but that was a long time ago.

There are people in GM who care and almost certainly some in the management chain, but they get drowned out by the bean counters. Lee Iacoca was able to turn around Chrysler because he didn't have a bean counter's mindset. His philosophy was if the company makes a good product and takes reasonable precautions to spend money wisely, it will make money. The change in culture reverted soon after Iacoca left though.

My father has always blamed the US business school mindset which doesn't focus on the product at all. It only focuses on profits. He started MBAs twice at two different schools (UCLA and USC), but quit after a term because of that mindset. He did OK running his own business for over 50 years.

 

[hill]

In all seriousness though.. I highly doubt that if they went to one of the glass makers that make glass for Porsche or Ferrari, they would turn a bad product like this one. Nothing against Peru, its just that i never heard of them as glass makers.

Doubt away my friend - before you brag about other cars not dealing w/ the same issues, it'd be worthwhile to read some of their forums;
Double vision in windshield - 6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource
nothing new under the sun - and btw, my '89 porsche speedster had an equally ridiculously expensive windshield that had ghosting issues - so that's why personally the notion of the MX being the only car w/ this issue strikes me as absurd. Eventually they'll do better, as manufacturers do. Everyone wants to be one of the 1st to own, and yet no one expects consequences?
.

 

[Chickenlittle]

This is not unique to Tesla - Toyota's have the same issue. Would you prefer glass w/o "ghosting" and UV/heat rejection?

Interesting that despite vocal complaints here only video posted here is of a Toyota

 

[electricity]

Doubt away my friend - before you brag about other cars not dealing w/ the same issues, it'd be worthwhile to read some of their forums;
Double vision in windshield - 6SpeedOnline - Porsche Forum and Luxury Car Resource
nothing new under the sun - and btw, my '89 porsche speedster had an equally ridiculously expensive windshield that had ghosting issues - so that's why personally the notion of the MX being the only car w/ this issue strikes me as absurd. Eventually they'll do better, as manufacturers do. Everyone wants to be one of the 1st to own, and yet no one expects consequences?
.

I dont know if you read the thread, but i said that just the other day i was in a uber jeep compass that had worse ghosting than mine. So yeah im sure some cars have it from time to time, but in the MX situation you have alot of cars with amateur made glass. That is a fact. Some people are experts in the field others are not. The guys that made this glass are obviously amateurs. I would be totally cool with this but right now i have a super car i cant drive at night.

 

[AZ Desert Driver]

Speculation here - but could the ghost be from window TINT, a film that causes multiple paths for light - and NOT the glass itself? Could that film be intentionally installed, or even just a film like from smoker condensate. just a dirty window that can be solved by scrubbing it off?

 

[Macgaver]

For me, it's just anoyance. No additional risk from that and I could live with it. But I expect a Tesla statement at some point if it's normal or not.

Is it happening on all X ? If not, well that should be fixable right

 

[Zaphod]

Speculation here - but could the ghost be from window TINT, a film that causes multiple paths for light - and NOT the glass itself? Could that film be intentionally installed, or even just a film like from smoker condensate. just a dirty window that can be solved by scrubbing it off?

Automotive windshields are required to be safety glass, meaning they are laminated with film(s) to prevent large shards forming during accidents. If the ghosting is occurring from that, not sure if anyone knows. Due to the curvature of the windshield, its plausible as the light has to go through each of these layers.

Keep in mind, glass is an amorphous solid. Possibly during the cooling process defects are appearing causing the ghosting before it truly cools and hardens. My bet is the issue has to do with the laminated coating.

 

[Macgaver]

Automotive windshields are required to be safety glass, meaning they are laminated with film(s) to prevent large shards forming during accidents. If the ghosting is occurring from that, not sure if anyone knows. Due to the curvature of the windshield, its plausible as the light has to go through each of these layers.

Keep in mind, glass is an amorphous solid. Possibly during the cooling process defects are appearing causing the ghosting before it truly cools and hardens. My bet is the issue has to do with the laminated coating.

My oncle is optician and confirmed exactly what you are saying. Laminated + angle make it thick in our vision angle and may cause this. I guess we just need confirmation that it's happening on all X out there. If not, that means it's fixable ?

 

[onesixeight]

For me, it's just anoyance. No additional risk from that and I could live with it. But I expect a Tesla statement at some point if it's normal or not.

Is it happening on all X ? If not, well that should be fixable right

Here it the email I received from Tesla this morning when I e-mail service in Fremont. For the record, I'm not a Tesla fanboy, I have 5 other cars and I have not experienced this issue in any other car I've owned or currently have. This is a boilerplate message that I've seen on another ghosting thread.

It's getting to the point where I have headaches when I drive this car, day or night.

Hello [removed],

Thank You for contacting Tesla Motors Technical Support. Reflections (ghosting) occur in all laminated glass to varying degrees and affect some more than others. A small handful of customers have experienced this phenomenon. We are investigating the root cause, and you will be given priority once a solution is available. This has been reported to your service center and our engineering team.


Sincerely,

Elisa Gephart |Technical Support Specialist 45500 Fremont Blvd | Fremont, CA 94538
24/7 Support 1-877-79-TESLA

 

[Macgaver]

Thanks for that info. I should probably let my DS know about this then. If it's a "small handful of customers", I am one of them and they need to know.

 

[Local host]

Meet the maker of the Tesla Model X’s “Big Sky” panoramic windshield

AGP Glass

They also make windshields for Audi, MB, VW and others:

AGP

 

[srini]

Thanks for that info. I should probably let my DS know about this then. If it's a "small handful of customers", I am one of them and they need to know.

A handful is a vague number and quite subjective A poll on TMC may be called for.
This is why, reporting to nhtsa is helpful. Everyone gets to see the number of complaints. Alas, nhtsa relies on absolute number of cases, not a percent of vehicles having the issue.

 

[electricity]

A handful is a vague number and quite subjective A poll on TMC may be called for.
This is why, reporting to nhtsa is helpful. Everyone gets to see the number of complaints. Alas, nhtsa relies on absolute number of cases, not a percent of vehicles having the issue.

Helpful to who ? All we want (at least all I want) is Tesla to tell me, hey Electricity (i think i allready wrote this above).. we spoke with the makers of the glass, this error occured in so and so process , they got it down now and expect a new glass in 6 months ? 3 years ? Thats all I'm asking for really and if they cant fix it , then tell me.. we are asking some other company, or we will make a few custom glasses for the troubled users and replace them for you in 3 months, 5 years.. etc.