Aww, there you go letting facts get in the way of my hyperbole
Yet the first question anyone asks my about the Active E and the Model S is "How far can it go?"
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i3 Driving Dynamics: What A Disappointment
- Thread starter jandkw
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Aww, there you go letting facts get in the way of my hyperbole
Yet the first question anyone asks my about the Active E and the Model S is "How far can it go?"
^^^
For some perspective, one can see Rav4 EV sales vs. Leaf and (estimates of) Model S sales due to Tesla not reporting monthly numbers, unlike most major/not so major automakers.
December 2012 Dashboard - HybridCars.com
July 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com
For some perspective, one can see Rav4 EV sales vs. Leaf and (estimates of) Model S sales due to Tesla not reporting monthly numbers, unlike most major/not so major automakers.
December 2012 Dashboard - HybridCars.com
July 2013 Dashboard - HybridCars.com
roblab
Active Member
Have you ever driven a range anxiety electric car?
Sure, now that I have a Tesla, range is not an issue. I never even think about it. What I think about is the styling, the flat floor, the handling, all the things you mention. But before the Tesla, the overarching issue was RANGE. I couldn't go to town (30 miles) and back without thinking, "Oh, yeah, I can cut over to Home Depot and get that paint. Only a few miles out of the way." NOT. I was always calculating in my head how fast I was going, what my range was, how much I had to use to get up the hill.
If a friend asked me to come up to his house, I had to arrange to toss my eighty pound charger in the back and plug in at his place for a few hours. I couldn't go to the airport, because it was beyond what I could do without a four hour recharge. And Toyota made sure there were precious few places you could go where there would be a small paddle inductive charging station. Tesla gives you a bag of adapters.
Range anxiety? What's that?
But it was not always so, my friend.
ChadS
Last tank of gas: March 2009
I had one of the old RAV4-EVs too. My wife, who is (bless her) unwilling to undergo any inconvenience, or learn anything about how her car works, or how to hypermile, or how or where to charge, drove it for 4 years. Our state never had any charging stations that would work with it, and she couldn't lift the charger. She never charged it anywhere other than in our garage, and she never had any range anxiety (well, except for her first trip over 50 miles when the needle got "close" to the red zone as she was 5 miles from home). When people would ask how she put up with the "inconvenience" of an electric car, she would laugh because it was the most convenient car she had ever driven. She just got in and drove. We would have no problem switching to a Leaf or i3, and in fact probably would if something happened to my Roadster.
Obviously, our driving habits are very different; we are only 3 miles from town and 6 miles from her job; her parents are her longest regular trip, and they are 25 miles away. And we had another car so she could trade on the rare occasions when she needed to go past the comfortable range of the RAV4 (I told her not to go more than 80 miles in summer and 60 miles in winter; that was all she learned about the car. It could go farther than that, but I didn't want her to ever run in to trouble because I never would have heard the end of it). She DEFINITELY would have been unhappy if she was driving it where you drive.
What I'm trying to say is that both Rodolfo and roblab have very valid points - anybody buying an EV needs to get one with enough range so they aren't going to be constantly pushing the envelope; but what's "enough" varies a lot. The Leaf works great for some people; won't work at all for others. Some people can't even make an S85 work. I advise people not to get a Leaf if they take trips of more than 50 miles with any regularity. It's like buying a sports car - the Miata is a great car and most owners are extremely happy with it; but single parents that drive carpool will experience passenger anxiety every day and come to hate it.
I know that all sounds obvious to us EV drivers, but I constantly encounter gas drivers that haven't thought it through (in their defense, it's hard when you don't know the "real" range; plus it takes a while to make sure you have gone through ALL the scenarios in your head), and you never know who's reading the forums. I don't want them to be afraid of EVs, but I don't want them to pick one that won't work for them either.
Obviously, our driving habits are very different; we are only 3 miles from town and 6 miles from her job; her parents are her longest regular trip, and they are 25 miles away. And we had another car so she could trade on the rare occasions when she needed to go past the comfortable range of the RAV4 (I told her not to go more than 80 miles in summer and 60 miles in winter; that was all she learned about the car. It could go farther than that, but I didn't want her to ever run in to trouble because I never would have heard the end of it). She DEFINITELY would have been unhappy if she was driving it where you drive.
What I'm trying to say is that both Rodolfo and roblab have very valid points - anybody buying an EV needs to get one with enough range so they aren't going to be constantly pushing the envelope; but what's "enough" varies a lot. The Leaf works great for some people; won't work at all for others. Some people can't even make an S85 work. I advise people not to get a Leaf if they take trips of more than 50 miles with any regularity. It's like buying a sports car - the Miata is a great car and most owners are extremely happy with it; but single parents that drive carpool will experience passenger anxiety every day and come to hate it.
I know that all sounds obvious to us EV drivers, but I constantly encounter gas drivers that haven't thought it through (in their defense, it's hard when you don't know the "real" range; plus it takes a while to make sure you have gone through ALL the scenarios in your head), and you never know who's reading the forums. I don't want them to be afraid of EVs, but I don't want them to pick one that won't work for them either.
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While I don't disagree with calling woof out on this, I think there's more to the picture here.
If Tesla wasn't production constrained, would the Model S have outsold the Leaf? We simply don't know.
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This is at least the second time, Chad. Stop taunting the cosmos!
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I thought this was when someone in the passenger seat keeps yelling, "Slow down, Joe!"
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Yeah, this is repeated a lot by Model S skeptics. I suppose you can also compare numbers when the Leaf also had a backlog. And to be fair, Nissan is also saying they are production constrained.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
That I just don't want to believe, because it would be so stupid and shortsighted that I can't even begin to imagine that any automaker could think this way.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think BMW is serious about building an EV, but just following in the footsteps of the Leaf and iMIEV (which no one will say are not serious efforts) by building a funky looking city car. That seems to be the role most car makers (whether serious about EVs or not) see them in unfortunately.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Fair question. Honest answer, I haven't got a clue as to why.
But on the other hand GM imho in those days was run by idiots, so they don't really counted as a "serious" carmaker to me. I mean look at what they made out of Opel, once Germany's leading carmaker! Plus it was a different age back then, with far lower fuel prices, pre-9-11 mindset, etc., so EVs didn't really seem very necessary to many people - and the tech really wasn't as advanced as it is now. I don't think even Tesla would have been able to build a Model S in the early nineties.
gjunky
Trifecta: Solar and both cars are EVs
It looks like BMW is following the same pattern as all the non-Tesla EVs out there (as mentioned before): They are all designed as city cars.
That said, I am very curious to see how the Model S is going to sell and how successful it will be in BMW's home market of Germany. People tend to drive greater distances in the mostly Diesel powered cars and at much higher speeds. This driving behavior will put serious pressure on the range of the Model S. Where you can drive 265 miles on a range charge at perhaps 65-70mph (I don't know the exact range at that speed), the range at 110mph is going to be drastically less. I guess time will tell until there are more cars on the road in Germany, France, Italy and Austria (long distance driving countries) and what will happen once Supercharging stations start to arrive. Norway with its fast adoption and charging station will be interesting too.
I think Tesla will win not only because of the better car (styling, technology and range) but mostly because of the Supercharger infrastructure. When will Mercedes build an electric car that is not just a city car and which can use the superchargers....
Interesting times ahead. I don't think BMW is going to sell a lot of I3s. I8, yes.
Just my opinion of course.
That said, I am very curious to see how the Model S is going to sell and how successful it will be in BMW's home market of Germany. People tend to drive greater distances in the mostly Diesel powered cars and at much higher speeds. This driving behavior will put serious pressure on the range of the Model S. Where you can drive 265 miles on a range charge at perhaps 65-70mph (I don't know the exact range at that speed), the range at 110mph is going to be drastically less. I guess time will tell until there are more cars on the road in Germany, France, Italy and Austria (long distance driving countries) and what will happen once Supercharging stations start to arrive. Norway with its fast adoption and charging station will be interesting too.
I think Tesla will win not only because of the better car (styling, technology and range) but mostly because of the Supercharger infrastructure. When will Mercedes build an electric car that is not just a city car and which can use the superchargers....
Interesting times ahead. I don't think BMW is going to sell a lot of I3s. I8, yes.
Just my opinion of course.
I don't know why everybody thinks BMW is a good car. Everyone I personally know that has one or has had one, *this is NO exaggeration*, has had nothing but problems with it. Over and over and over again. All different models too. I can't think of anyone I personally know that has actually enjoyed owning their BMW. Every time I speak to them it's like something else is wrong with their car. The common theme I hear is 1) it keeps breaking all the time and 2) it's expensive as hell to repair. Because of this, I equate BMW with one of the worst cars to possibly own. But that's just my circle of friends (actually its mostly my extended family I'm referring to - my closer circle of friends all think BMWs are junk cars too). Maybe back in the heyday BMW used to be somebody, but it seems to me that the last decade or so BMW has just gone to crap with piece of junkers that break frequently. I would never buy one - let alone a junker "compliance car" trying to be passed off as an EV with this scam marketing.
I wouldn't call BMWs "junk" cars. I have the E46 M3, which I still have, and the F10 M5. Both are holding up very well in terms of build quality. Perhaps, I am lucky with the M3 especially since I've had it since 2002. I do agree that post warranty and service inclusion expiration, the parts / service is where they take a bite out of the checkbook. The M5 is quite the beast for a sedan, which is why I look forward to speccing out my P85 soon. If the MS turns out to be what it is, the M5 will likely go as there's no room in my garage for 2 monster sedans.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Some people buy a BMW for the driving experience (esp. if you have an M car). Most people buy it for the brand name. Same idea with Mercedes.
If you mainly want a reliable car with reasonable repair costs, there's obviously other much better choices (Lexus for example).
If you mainly want a reliable car with reasonable repair costs, there's obviously other much better choices (Lexus for example).
FWIW, I haven't talked to them in ages but numerous folks I know who owned BMWs at the time actually do like them for their handling and the brand "prestige". However, even one who was a big BMW fanboy admitted that "BMW quality isn't very good". He got his 3-series via European delivery and I recall him mentioning getting a warning light (check engine?) when it was brand new still in Europe and his windshield wipers failed while he was there (and it rained too). So, he had stop every few miles to wipe off the rain.
I have little interest in owning a BMW. Their reliability is pretty spotty and inconsistent w/some models just having awful reliability. That's sort of why the one of the jokes about BMW is Behold, My Wallet (amongst many others) or Big Money Waster.
That said, BMW also can stand for Brings Me Women. Some women (usually amongst the crowd that know nothing about cars) have some weird attraction to BMWs and in some cases, their styling. I've seen it firsthand w/some folks I know and someone I'd dated.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
BMW can't make EVs that compete with other BMW's in their lineup because their customers - dealers - don't want them. The only EVs you're going to see that compare to BMW ICE's will be from Tesla.
The EV1 is a 2-seater with minimal cargo room, unbeatable aerodynamics and a battery pack that weighed between 1300 (lead-acid) to 1100 (later NiMH models) lbs. Despite the pack weighing well over 1000 lbs, the curb weight was right around 3,000 lbs. The NiMH pack held 26.4 kWh.
In contrast, the LEAF is a 5-seater with good cargo room and marginal aerodynamics due to it's high roof line. It's lithium pack weighs about 660 lbs and is rated at 24 kWh. Curb weight is 3,300 lbs.
Give the LEAF a 1000 lb battery pack with the same characteristics and stretch it out a bit to improve aerodynamics and it will go significantly farther while being a far more usable vehicle. Even better - use a Tesla battery pack with it's higher energy/weight ratio!
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