ICE cars are dangerous.

[Mookuh]

Handling oil is dangerous, too. (This goes in here, right?)
State of emergency declared in West Virginia after train derails, explodes - LA Times

I sincerely hope noone was hurt, but the environmental damage is gonna be disastrous.

 

[green1]

Handling oil is dangerous, too. (This goes in here, right?)
State of emergency declared in West Virginia after train derails, explodes - LA Times

I sincerely hope noone was hurt, but the environmental damage is gonna be disastrous.

This is what happens when you refuse to allow pipelines to be built... I'm all for the electrification of everything we can, but to think oil will go away overnight is just silly. And every time one of these train disasters happens (and they are becoming more common) look squarely at the people objecting to the pipelines. It is entirely their fault that we continue to move oil in such a dangerous way.

 

[EchoDelta]

This is what happens when you refuse to allow pipelines to be built... I'm all for the electrification of everything we can, but to think oil will go away overnight is just silly. And every time one of these train disasters happens (and they are becoming more common) look squarely at the people objecting to the pipelines. It is entirely their fault that we continue to move oil in such a dangerous way.

Hope you are trolling.
What a fantastically fallacious and illogical line of thinking.
Company x makes money moving goods from A to B for a profit
Company X can't be bothered to invest in enough safety to move the goods because it would eat into margins or make it outright nonviable.
Company x has an accident.

It's the fault of people exercising their rights influencing the decision to allow alternatives?

If that is the idea being put forward, check it out, Fox News is hiring analysts.

 

[green1]

Hope you are trolling.
What a fantastically fallacious and illogical line of thinking.
Company x makes money moving goods from A to B for a profit
Company X can't be bothered to invest in enough safety to move the goods because it would eat into margins or make it outright nonviable.
Company x has an accident.

It's the fault of people exercising their rights influencing the decision to allow alternatives?

If that is the idea being put forward, check it out, Fox News is hiring analysts.

People who oppose pipelines think it will stop oil flow, they are the ones who are being illogical. Oil will flow, if not by pipe, then by train. Objecting to the safe way to transport something causes people to transport it the unsafe way.

This isn't even about "company x" it's about "company y" the one looking for the best way to ship it's goods. it has option A pipelines which are cheaper, and safer, or option B rail which is less safe and more expensive. Company y would take Option A every time if they were allowed to, but the environmentalists put up such a fuss that they take option B instead.

Thinking company y is just going to give up and stop shipping oil alltogether is extremely naive.

 

[EchoDelta]

People who oppose pipelines think it will stop oil flow, they are the ones who are being illogical. Oil will flow, if not by pipe, then by train. Objecting to the safe way to transport something causes people to transport it the unsafe way.

This isn't even about "company x" it's about "company y" the one looking for the best way to ship it's goods. it has option A pipelines which are cheaper, and safer, or option B rail which is less safe and more expensive. Company y would take Option A every time if they were allowed to, but the environmentalists put up such a fuss that they take option B instead.

Thinking company y is just going to give up and stop shipping oil alltogether is extremely naive.

Obviously a troll.
So company Y shouldn't be accountable for their decisions and offering?

An alternate thought experiment:
- a freighter of consumables -say iPads- lands stuff in a dangerous airport, let's imagine it's too short
- freighter says it would be safer to build another airport elsewhere
- residents and other folks push back on the idea because they feel they'd be directly or indirectly affected. Sure, some buy iPads too.
- freighter doesn't invest in better stol airplanes and has an accident

Your logic would point to no accountability of the freighter whatsoever; and put the shipment of the iPads above rights of individuals who say would be affected by the new airport.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[EchoDelta]

Obviously a troll.
So company Y shouldn't be accountable for their decisions and offering?

An alternate thought experiment:
- a freighter of consumables -say iPads- lands stuff in a dangerous airport, let's imagine it's too short
- freighter says it would be safer to build another airport elsewhere
- residents and other folks push back on the idea because they feel they'd be directly or indirectly affected. Sure, some buy iPads too.
- freighter doesn't invest in better stol airplanes and has an accident

Your logic would point to no accountability of the freighter whatsoever; and put the shipment of the iPads above rights of individuals who say would be affected by the new airport.

Is that what you are saying?

Even further you seem to indicate that it's the residents pushing back on the new airport that should be held responsible for the side effects of the accident.

 

[green1]

I'm a troll now for pointing out that the oil companies won't voluntarily shut their doors and go bankrupt because some environmentalists block their pipeline proposals?

I'm not sure what world you people are living in, but in a realistic one you understand that there is still a massive global demand for oil, the companies won't stop shipping it, so if we want to avoid accidents like this our best bet is to give them the safest possible way to ship it. Pipelines.

I want everything to be electric, but it simply won't happen over night.

 

[TEG]

Handling oil is dangerous, too. (This goes in here, right?)
State of emergency declared in West Virginia after train derails, explodes - LA Times

I sincerely hope noone was hurt, but the environmental damage is gonna be disastrous.

That got discussed here:

Gas stations are dangerous!

We don't have an exact thread for all situations... Perhaps we need to merge everything into "fuel is dangerous".
Or split into:
ICE cars are dangerous
Gas stations are dangerous
Fuel trains are dangerous
Pipelines are dangerous
(etc.)

 

[green1]

I think this thread is a fun way to respond to all those people who (still!) think Teslas are fire traps. But I think trying to tout it as "we should all ditch all liquid fuels overnight" is pushing it a bit. Sure, we need to go electric, but it will take time, and the relatively small percentage of accidents with liquid fuels are not enough to convince the public to switch. Nor should it be honestly, the odds of being involved in any of these is still statistically minuscule and letting risks like that rule our lives when there are many more severe risks does not make logical sense.

There are many great reasons to go electric, the simplicity and therefore reliability of the systems, the ability to fuel at home, the efficiency, over time the cost benefits will also appear. All good reasons. But anyone using this thread to try to convince the public they need to go electric will be seen as more than a little crazy by most of them.

Use the thread for what it was designed for originally, a response to those who use 3 Tesla fires after high speed impacts, where nobody was hurt, as a condemnation of all Teslas as being unsafe.

 

[EchoDelta]

I'm a troll now for pointing out that the oil companies won't voluntarily shut their doors and go bankrupt because some environmentalists block their pipeline proposals?

I'm not sure what world you people are living in, but in a realistic one you understand that there is still a massive global demand for oil, the companies won't stop shipping it, so if we want to avoid accidents like this our best bet is to give them the safest possible way to ship it. Pipelines.

I want everything to be electric, but it simply won't happen over night.

I suggest it is a trolling concept because it's blatantly illogical and sensationalist.

If we want to avoid accidents like this we have to make those causing it accountable for not making investments in safety measures.
What we shouldn't do to prevent accidents by a company who hasn't invested in safety is forego others' individual rights to allow for more profitable alternatives.

Another example of your reasoning: I like fireworks, I'm your neighbor. I ask you to move to make it safer for me to throw fireworks, you refuse (I call you a party pooper), I don't change practices and your house burns .. So it's your fault. And the headlines should say "party poopers should be held accountable that green1's house burned down. It would be naive for Echodelta to stop lighting fireworks or ask him to get safer ones"

I'm not saying stop the flow oil. I'm saying stop externalizing it's costs and risks and just run it like a business. And let's use logic in conversation, it's way more fun.

 

[green1]

I suggest it is a trolling concept because it's blatantly illogical and sensationalist.

pot, kettle. Logic is to design for safety, and that means pipelines. Having people trying to stop all oil by blocking pipelines is illogical. Oil will flow.

If we want to avoid accidents like this we have to make those causing it accountable for not making investments in safety measures.

But what if what we're really doing is actively blocking all safety measures attempted? Such as shipping things by a safer method?

What we shouldn't do to prevent accidents by a company who hasn't invested in safety is forego others' individual rights to allow for more profitable alternatives.

Nobody has the "individual right" to block a pipeline going in somewhere that doesn't affect them (ie, not on their land) As for profitable, rail shipment is the least profitable alternative, no company WANTS to ship by rail, they do it because the cheaper AND SAFER method is barred to them.

I won't even respond to your "example" because it is so far out of touch with anything discussed here as to be irrelevant.

I'm not saying stop the flow oil. I'm saying stop externalizing it's costs and risks and just run it like a business.

Actually you have said to stop it, implicitly by saying that they should stop shipping it by rail, but ALSO saying they shouldnt' ship it by pipelines, magic fairy dust isn't a viable shipping option.

And let's use logic in conversation, it's way more fun.

I've been doing that from the start. I'm waiting for a return in kind.

 

[EchoDelta]

pot, kettle. Logic is to design for safety, and that means pipelines. Having people trying to stop all oil by blocking pipelines is illogical. Oil will flow.


But what if what we're really doing is actively blocking all safety measures attempted? Such as shipping things by a safer method?


Nobody has the "individual right" to block a pipeline going in somewhere that doesn't affect them (ie, not on their land) As for profitable, rail shipment is the least profitable alternative, no company WANTS to ship by rail, they do it because the cheaper AND SAFER method is barred to them.

I won't even respond to your "example" because it is so far out of touch with anything discussed here as to be irrelevant.


Actually you have said to stop it, implicitly by saying that they should stop shipping it by rail, but ALSO saying they shouldnt' ship it by pipelines, magic fairy dust isn't a viable shipping option.


I've been doing that from the start. I'm waiting for a return in kind.

Well if you say environmentalists are to blame for the accident you referred to then you are following the same reasoning in the thought experiments I'm putting forward. Just substitute scene and costumes to see how they affect perception. If you feel they don't match I'd welcome an analysis why.

In the end it was a manager of company Y that gave the systemic go ahead for that train to go.
No one else.



I'm not arguing that pipelines aren't better. I'm positing a business can't blame others for it's decisions. A pipeline is not a safety measure of a train; it is a different design altogether that has other effects.

Those effects may not be wanted by others who have a right to push back- Or are you also suggesting you know better who's affected by what?

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Handling oil is dangerous, too. (This goes in here, right?)
State of emergency declared in West Virginia after train derails, explodes - LA Times

I sincerely hope noone was hurt, but the environmental damage is gonna be disastrous.

That got discussed here:

Gas stations are dangerous!

We don't have an exact thread for all situations... Perhaps we need to merge everything into "fuel is dangerous".
Or split into:
ICE cars are dangerous
Gas stations are dangerous
Fuel trains are dangerous
Pipelines are dangerous
(etc.)

There's also this one:

Oil Companies are Dangerous!!

The first post in that thread contains this YouTube video:

 

[AudubonB]

Let's see if we can't discuss why one's opinion differs from that of another's without resorting to snippy-bound ad hominems. ​PLEASE!

 

[Pilot_51]

There's also this one:

Oil Companies are Dangerous!!

The first post in that thread contains this YouTube video:

Now we just need an equivalent video of oil train accidents to form a more educated opinion of which is more dangerous. However, the missing statistic is the amount of gas/oil being transported.

Also, WHAT DID THEY DO TO MICHIGAN?! :scared:

 

[RiverBrick]

Now we just need an equivalent video of oil train accidents to form a more educated opinion of which is more dangerous. However, the missing statistic is the amount of gas/oil being transported.

Also, WHAT DID THEY DO TO MICHIGAN?! :scared:

1) Yes, we do.

2) Before viewing the video I thought you were referencing the 2010 Kalamazoo River spill when over a million gallons of tar sands oil were dumped in the river. (The leak gushed unabated for 17 hours before Enbridge took action). Now, however, I see the producer was lazy and decided to imagine several of the Great Lakes had dried up, fusing the Upper and Lower Michigan peninsulas.

 

[Ufrugger]

2015 Mustang GT Goes Up in Flames After Dealership Visit - Yahoo Autos

 

[igotzzoom]

A variation on this theme are runaway diesels. There are plenty of YouTube videos out there of them. If you're not familiar with the concept, basically, when the piston rings or turbo bearings go on a diesel, they'll literally start burning their own motor oil, and will basically spin themselves to death.

 

[tga]

A variation on this theme are runaway diesels. There are plenty of YouTube videos out there of them. If you're not familiar with the concept, basically, when the piston rings or turbo bearings go on a diesel, they'll literally start burning their own motor oil, and will basically spin themselves to death.

Any easy fix on a stationary (or boat, or tractor) engine - spray a CO2 extinguisher in the air intake or block it with a rag, coat, etc. When it happens in a car or truck you're driving, not so simple. You're pretty much stuck with trying to stop and hoping the engine stalls (if the leak is small and you have a manual transmission), or shifting to neutral and letting the engine overrev.

 

[Pilot_51]